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EB questions

WAFI

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Sep 22, 2019
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5
Hi Guys and Girls,
Thanks in advance for any info.
My Plan is to repower my yacht(which hasnt been purchased yet) for blue water cruising, I am going to go complete electric throughout, my question is what would be the best route?
Has anyone thought about powerwall style?
Is 220v a better route to go or 12-24-48v better with inverter a better option for safety?
Obviously theres a reason why no one has taken a written off EV and transplanted the batteries and motor to a boat, for the life of me I cannot work out why it has not been done so any input on this would be good. (I am guessing its the high voltages involved)?
Going to an extreme what sort of battery power would be required if I wanted to run the motor for a solid 12hrs (doldrums) I appreciate there is a lot more involved than a simple answer, ie boat length weight drag, motor size etc have a big factor, I am happy with assumptions being made as this will give me an idea of viability, I am thinking that the battery/solar tech isnt quite there yet and will essentially need a "hybrid".
looking forward to your thoughts :)
 
I'm most curious to see what people have to say. I have cruised offshore with internal combustion (both gasoline and diesel).
But a few questions might aid in their answers:
When you say "complete electric" are you including the galley?
and
Where do you plan on cruising?

Wiley
 
Wiley
[/QUOTE]
And as my wife and I just came in from throwing frisbee with our dog and having our end of day beer... she said, "You didn't ask about how big a boat? Or the size of crew. And I said to her that that was self limiting and she replied he (you) might be rich with money no object. So I'll add:

How big a boat? (It's not pushing it thru the water its also lifting its ground tackle)

How many crew? (just you and wife alone or how many strapping young 20 years old crew?)

and so now her questions are covered, and I'll add:

What do you envision in the way of extras (drinks with ice at sundown? Ice cream for desert? Freezing fish you catch? Compressor for scuba tanks?)
I'm not trying to make fun but obviously we need more info.
What are your parameters?
What are you envisioning for your cruising experience?

Only wishing to help,
Wiley
 
Canoe With trolling motor on a river going down steam...don’t need much of a battery bank to go for 12 hrs...

Barge...upstream...a gigafactory...just to match the current...

Need a bit more info...
 
Hi Wiley/getyourbone,
As I said in the original post yacht has not been purchased however blue water cruising should have given a bit about size away?
I will hypothetically give sizes to try get an idea on people's thoughts. 46ft sailing yacht approximately 10t in weight original 50hp diesel engine, short handed crew 2-4 people max, galley completely electric, engine completely electric, fridge and freezer, air con, solar panels x4 more if room allows, regen from motor as well as possible wind turbine, ice maker, majority of the time we will be in the tropics Bahamas French Polynesia,Fiji etc. Scuba tank Compressor yes. Electric winch anchor yes. (Apologies if the reply seems sarcastic it's not meant to be)
 
I think your talking about an impossibly large battery.

For the sake of brevity, I’m just going to say your house is going to draw about equal amount as you engine
If your talking scuba, I assume you also want air conditioning?

Motor?...just enough to move it along ...on and off anchor and no wind / no current situations...2 -3 knts?...Certainly not hull speed.


Ability to move under power for 12 hrs...??? 25kw x 12hrs x 2(engine and house) = 600kwh raw bank...conversion losses etc. will drop this down significantly.

May not be 600 but don’t think it is 100.


I assume you have followed the youtube channels that have been doing it...sailing uma, etc...?
 
Hi Getyourbone, I have started following Uma on yt ?, maybe I should have said in my opening post I am a complete novice and have literally just started to look into anything solar so my knowledge on battery storage etc is virtually nil.
 
Yeah, and I certainly am not an expert but did install a house bank system on our boat as well as there was an existing one on it.

We ran into a couple in key west, building a solar/electric cat from scratch as their research resulted in a conclusion that their is no realistic way to take an existing boat and convert to all electric...certainly not all solar which was their objective.

I think all info I have found of people cruising with electric propulsion points to really depending on it getting in and off anchor or out of a bay or marina. Also not at cruising speeds of more than a few knots for any length of time.

I know we ran into areas in the Bahamas that had currents coming and going between islands that were almost impossible for our yanmar diesel to deal with. There is no way we would have been able have enough energy on board to have been under electric propulsion and gotten us out of the potentially very dangerous situations we found our selves in.

Please Don’t think I’m negative on the dream. It’s just that my research has brought me to the conclusion that it very very difficult and expensive and even then your likely to be making lots of compromises as far as range, speed and safety(albeit any propulsion issues at the wrong time is not good and can/will/did happen with diesel).
 
I agree completely with what Getyourbone said.

However, when you say you are a complete novice...do you know how to sail? Has your sailing been in protected waters or coastal? Not being judgmental...we all started as novices.

I have sailed in both the Caribbean and in the South Pacific and there are significant differences between the two. Expectations and what one will accept willingly (and even enjoy) varies tremendously.

Regarding the vessel size and amenities you stated you are talking a displacement vessel. Just for comparison: a Westsail 42 displaces close on 32000 pounds, a Valiant 40 displaces 22,500 (Valiants are fine if you don't mind the blisters). Both are considered blue water cruising boats. So you might want to revisit the 20,000 pound displacement expectation with a 46 ft vessel.

Hope this helps,
Wiley
 
Okay, my first post, and found these forums via the YouTube channel so, Howdy All!
I'm working on not so much what folks refer to as a diesel-hybrid but my own flavor, but more on that in a moment.
Yes, you can have a totally electric and solar sailboat/powerboat. WAFI, you mentioned following"Following Uma," I know them and the channel, but you need to do Jordan & Randi's "Learning the Lines." instead (you can keep with Uma, but Jordan has it going on). They take a 32-foot Endeavor, completely redo her, and go totally electric with an ElectricYacht 10kw motor, 12x 100ah Battleborn batteries set up in three 100ah banks for 300ah at 48VDC to drive the motor. Ships 12VDC and 120VAC are via inverter and charging is via 600 watts of solar. They did it for a year at anchor running power tools and occasionally a 5000 BTU A/C. You've got to watch your current use on a boat, period! I've lived on two for near a year each; it's a different lifestyle that teaches one to be frugal with everything, it's good for you. Jordan and Randi can sail along the Flordia coast; they're from Tampa I think, and down to the keys, but I would not go into the open ocean nor the Carribean. They don't have enough power to buck some of the currents that have been mentioned previously in this thread with a 10kw motor, a 20kw, maybe, but not me, and I'll get to why shortly.

It is possible to build a totally electric boat, catamaran, monohull sailboat, or powerboat that can sail the seven seas with dependability and safely if you have enough money and the right team of experts behind you, but for regular folks, even wealthy ones, the technology is just not there yet, it close though. The best solar panels are only 24.1% efficient, but they're cheap nowadays, so that makes them very practical for use in high wattage arrays. The motors are state of the art and can go to 40kw, which is equivalent to a 68hp diesel. The charging systems, inverters, etc. are fantastic and very reasonable, but it's still storage that's the issue. I'm looking at $11,400 for 12 batteries from Battleborn at $950 each, but those batteries can do 100% DOD plus they are good to 3000 to 5000 cycles if you don't go below 80% discharge too often. Think about this, 3000 cycles are over eight years with one cycle a day. The batteries have a 10-year warranty, and over their life, their cost per kWh is a fraction of anything else, including shore power. Lead-Acid are primitive by comparison and incredibly expensive when you do the long term numbers. The problem is the cost when you want to run things like A\C or compressors to refill dive tanks; even watermakers use a lot of current because of the high-pressure pump. Do a load analysis of everything you plan to run on your batteries, and that will tell you how much storage capacity you will need.

I just helped a friend of mine set up his Morgan 32 just like I'm doing for my soon to be Endeavor 37. He has 300ah as mentioned, and runs his 5000 BTU marine A\C pretty much all the time down here in summer and even during the winter at times. It's the Gulf Coast climate. The A\C uses 5amps at full load, but will not run full at capacity all the time, maybe a third once the small and well-insulated area is cold. It doesn't kick on that often if you're not going in and out the hatch. He has a watermaker. It does 1.5 gals per hour using ten amps, but you only run every other day or so to make up the water you've consumed. He has a marine washer\dryer combo (expensive!) that pull 12 amps on dry, but he runs it once a week. That's all of his significant current hogs. We set up 800 watts of solar in three places, and he has two wind turbines.

Now we are keeping our diesel. The DC motor mounts behind the diesel and above the shaft where it's belt driving the propeller shaft. You can use the diesel, the 48VDC 20kw motor, or both at the same time if, say, for instance, you hit one of those badass currents we're mentioned. You can also drive an alternator and a generator while propelling the boat and running both 12VDC and 120VAC systems, and charging when the sun doesn't shine enough, or doesn't shine at all, or you might need to run an air compressor for some reason like, oh I don't know, maybe filling dive tanks? Drive the air compressor with the diesel. A 20kw 48 VDC motor will drive my Endeavor 37 at its hull speed of just under 7 knots at half throttle and like that, in good sunlight, the solar panels are keeping up with the load or even charging to batteries somewhat. Now, I'd cross the Atlantic in that set up in a heartbeat. You have the diesel, you have the electric motor if one fails you have the other. You have all the comforts of home.

Now a catamaran is a bit more expensive. You will need two motors, one in each hull. You will need one diesel-powered generator that can run both motors if need be, and charge even more batteries (two motors), and a bigger electrical system, but it's basically the same setup. The bigger the boat, the bigger the A\C required to keep it cool hence more batteries and solar panels.

I just watched the video from 2018 of the comparison of the LiFePO4 against the Tesla battery and the Tesla would be the best by leaps and bounds in cost and ability, but can it be used in a marine application like I'm talking about here? That is my question. Below is the link to the video of the battery comparison for those of you interested in this Tesla battery.

Off-grid Solar Battery Price Comparison: Tesla vs. FLA vs. SLA vs. LiFePO4 vs. Tesla:
 
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Forgot to add this link to "Learning the lines" channel run by Jordan and Randi, a seriously cool young couple who have their stuff together. Watch their "M\V Freebie" (they got it for free) in the playlist section to watch them totally refit a sweet little Endeavor 32 and convert it to totally electric if your interested in doing an electric boat, or like me and John, doing a diesel-eletric watch this, you will love it. They are friends with the folks at Sailing Uma.
 
Hey guys ,thanks for the responses, Wiley no I have no idea how to sail however this is a long term plan and not envisioning leaving for at least five years so would hope to have got a few miles under a hull by then. The whole idea of this post was to get ideas on what is possible at the moment, hence the original post where I state blue water sailing I am happy with assumptions being made as to what boat will be good for what application,
Cajun thankyou for a very well put together post, this has given me a better insight, we have no idea as to whether we are going down the cat or mono route yet, we have just started our looking around at the options and been on a few different setups, I have added leaning the lines to my list and will have a look ?, I appreciate that in three-five years the whole storage market could look completely different to where it's at now but still need to get to grips with what's what, I do like the idea of the hybrid but wonder if you could get the torque on a belt drive without to much bother? Wouldn't an axial motor be better in between the drive shaft? Just a thought ?
 

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Forgot to add this link to "Learning the lines" channel run by Jordan and Randi, a seriously cool young couple who have their stuff together. Watch their "M\V Freebie" (they got it for free) in the playlist section to watch them totally refit a sweet little Endeavor 32 and convert it to totally electric if your interested in doing an electric boat, or like me and John, doing a diesel-eletric watch this, you will love it. They are friends with the folks at Sailing Uma.


You are able to put a much better spin on it! More or less ended up in the same place but you lifted up rather than bringing down! Good job!
 
Damn Wafi, I just spent an hour with a detailed explanation and pros and cons with pictures of all kinds of setups and somehow I deleted it when posted. Oh well, unless someone knows a trick to get it back, I'll have to do it over. Once I clear the tears of frustration, I'll start over. Darn, that was 800 words too.
You are able to put a much better spin on it! More or less ended up in the same place but you lifted up rather than bringing down! Good job!
Thank you, sir. I think we might be sailing on the same chart when it comes to it.
 
2yrs ago
Damn Wafi, I just spent an hour with a detailed explanation and pros and cons with pictures of all kinds of setups and somehow I deleted it when posted. Oh well, unless someone knows a trick to get it back, I'll have to do it over. Once I clear the tears of frustration, I'll start over. Darn, that was 800 words too.

Thank you, sir. I think we might be sailing on the same chart when it comes to it.

2 yrs ago he was me...I was him...?

In the end I’m content with the fact we had diesel...I don’t think we would have had enough energy from solar and batteries in the middle of the night on board to get as far as we did.

 
WaFI, until I rewrite all of the information, I'll answer your first question. No, First would be space restrictions, the shaft is close to the bottom of the hull usually in a kind of trough tapering towards the stuffing box seal, and Harley Davidson uses the same belt drive system and no one questions Harley's ability to deliver torque to the pavement. The belt is a cog-tooth type, quiet and lasts a good amount of time while cheap and easy to replace. Imagine crawling back into that tight space, pulling your motor and transmission to clear the shaft in order to get the axel motor on and off of it. Not very easy or pleasant job, especially bouncing around at sea.

25655-8552462.jpg
Heres a typical set up and the diesel output via the gearbox connects to the hub on the right.
 
2yrs ago


2 yrs ago he was me...I was him...?

In the end I’m content with the fact we had diesel...I don’t think we would have had enough energy from solar and batteries in the middle of the night on board to get as far as we did.


Yes, and that's why I keep my diesel. We were adrift for two days about a 100 nautical miles east of the Bahamas with no wind and bad fuel. We were able to get enough strained out and with a new filter. Made it halfway back when we met another cruiser that towed us the rest of the way. I know that desperate feeling well. After cleaning the tank and fresh fuel we finally made it across. I won't lie, I was scared shitless the first week, but after that it was cool. Cape Verde's were a welcome sight I can tell you, and that first hot shower, oh my!
 
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