diy solar

diy solar

Ive had solar for a year and now the utility company charges a demand fee... not cool.

I assume this new demand rate is across the board, not exclusively a special treat for solar customers?

Now that I'm taking a closer look at the announcement it's full of issues, at least in my way of thinking.
Their list of "ways to reduce your electricity bill" hasn't been updated since the 90's.

They want to stick you (all of us eventually) for $3.75/kW but are offering suggestions like turn off your lights, unplug appliances and ADD a heat pump.

In other words two things that will do nothing for your demand then one thing that will just blow it up when the strips kick on.

They've got a nice graphic but it's missing both a heat pump and an EV charger.


1708301699821.png
 
Banjoman said:
Another thought is looking to upgrade the heat pump to a true cold weather rated heat pump like a Gree Multipro or Mitsubishi hyper heat. I have a Gree Flexx at my house and it has never kicked on aux heat even in -9F ambient weather with -15 to -20 wind chill.
Click to expand...
If I go with a new Air source heat pump I will for sure get one good into the negative temps.
 
OzSolar said:
I assume this new demand rate is across the board, not exclusively a special treat for solar customers?

Now that I'm taking a closer look at the announcement it's full of issues, at least in my way of thinking.
Their list of "ways to reduce your electricity bill" hasn't been updated since the 90's.

They want to stick you (all of us eventually) for $3.75/kW but are offering suggestions like turn off your lights, unplug appliances and ADD a heat pump.

In other words two things that will do nothing for your demand then one thing that will just blow it up when the strips kick on.

They've got a nice graphic but it's missing both a heat pump and an EV charger.


View attachment 196573
Click to expand...
Correct it is across the board at this point.. they had a Coop 101 meeting for members when they announced this so I went for info. I brought up that very complaint in regards to how they suggest people can help reduce their bills.. I brought up how my heat pump water heater can actually have a higher demand while using less kwh...
 
zanydroid said:
Doesn't geothermal retain a decent COP at lower temp than A2A? That said, it feels like investing in a system to hand down to your grandkids...
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Sounds good on paper. 50 degree water year round, blah, blah. Two wells, source and return, turn them around every year. They don't hold up, systems are complicated, don't last as long in reality, not a hassle free system for sure. Never again.
 
ksmithaz1 said:
Sounds good on paper. 50 degree water year round, blah, blah. Two wells, source and return, turn them around every year. They don't hold up, systems are complicated, don't last as long in reality, not a hassle free system for sure. Never again.
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Hi ksmithaz1,
I am on year 13 on a closed loop setup. Happy with it. I'm guessing the open loop/steady stream of contaminates has something to do with your trouble.
 
ksmithaz1 said:
Sounds good on paper. 50 degree water year round, blah, blah. Two wells, source and return, turn them around every year. They don't hold up, systems are complicated, don't last as long in reality, not a hassle free system for sure. Never again.
Click to expand...
Properly designed and installed GSHP can do very well. I'm on year 13 with my closed loop. Only one issue was the fan motor in year 9 and that was covered under warranty.

The few bad stories I've heard have to do with pump and dump systems but I'm not saying that pump and dump systems are bad from a reliability standpoint. I do think they have the potential to be an environmental issue so I don't recommend them. Anytime you're messing with groundwater there's a chance to create a mess.

However if I was doing it today I would zone with individual mini splits. GSHP in my area starts at $30K for a 2 ton system last I heard. You can buy several top of line mini-splits for that sort of money.
 
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SunDave said:
Hi ksmithaz1,
I am on year 13 on a closed loop setup. Happy with it. I'm guessing the open loop/steady stream of contaminates has something to do with your trouble.
Click to expand...
I mentioned my neighbor that has open loop in another thread and the problems associated with it.

Some members commented they run pump and dump and don't have problems. There is no way I'd run a pump and dump here, too much lime in the water.
 
OzSolar said:
Properly designed and installed GSHP can do very well. I'm on year 13 with my closed loop. Only one issue was the fan motor in year 9 and that was covered under warranty.

The few bad stories I've heard have to do with pump and dump systems.

However if I was doing it today I would zone with individual mini splits. GSHP in my area starts at $30K for a 2 ton system last I heard. You can buy several five top of line mini-splits for that sort of money.
Click to expand...
Around here where winter gets way below 0°F, it might be wise to use the air source with some type of auxiliary such as wood or gas. This is where ground source holds the advantage but if the cold spell lasts 3 weeks, it wouldn't make sense to spend $60K for a 4 ton GSHP. One can buy plenty of gas for that.
 
OzSolar said:
Properly designed and installed GSHP can do very well. I'm on year 13 with my closed loop. Only one issue was the fan motor in year 9 and that was covered under warranty.

The few bad stories I've heard have to do with pump and dump systems.

However if I was doing it today I would zone with individual mini splits. GSHP in my area starts at $30K for a 2 ton system last I heard. You can buy several five top of line mini-splits for that sort of money.
Click to expand...

This is the crux. The minute you put in 2 wells, you just created two points of failure. If you have easy access to a reasonable volume of good groundwater at multiple depths it can work, but when the rubber meets the road I never even remotely saw an ROI. Poor quality groundwater, like full of iron etc, plays hell with the systems, and now you are dealing with plumbing instead of just a condenser fan. Expensive with dubious benefit and more complexity does not a winner make. Like anything else, there are probably places it might make sense, but I will never have another one. IMNSHO the air2air has improved so much it's silly to consider unless you have an esoteric edge case.
 
Zwy said:
Around here where winter gets way below 0°F, it might be wise to use the air source with some type of auxiliary such as wood or gas. This is where ground source holds the advantage but if the cold spell lasts 3 weeks, it wouldn't make sense to spend $60K for a 4 ton GSHP. One can buy plenty of gas for that.
Click to expand...
In southern MO we get below ~ -10f for a just a few hours every other year. 99% of the time we are well above that.

I have two mini splits, one for the basement where we couldn't retrofit duct work and one in my shop. I've watched them both put out warm air down to -14f when they shut off for low temp.
 
OzSolar said:
In southern MO we get below ~ -10f for a just a few hours every other year. 99% of the time we are well above that.

I have two mini splits, one for the basement where we couldn't retrofit duct work and one in my shop. I've watched them both put out warm air down to -14f when they shut off for low temp.
Click to expand...
This winter was mild, we only had sub zero for 2 weeks. Some days the high was below 0°F.

If the sun was shining on those cold days, I'd run the resistance heaters first instead of the heat pump which is supposed to heat to -15°F. The defrost cycle will kill any efficiency and the unit will be negative on COP (below 1). Electric resistance would be a COP of 1.

If batteries were full I'd turn on the heat pump. Might as well gain that heat energy from excess PV. I do all of this remote with my phone. Modern tech can be a great thing.
 
1201 said:
Sometimes I don't understand us solar people. You've got people asking if an inverter can run their electric dryer, when there is plenty of sun outside for free to dry your clothes with- no inverter or batteries needed. Its like people don't even want to try-even a little- to cut back.
Oh by the way, drying clothes outside-there's 6kw of demand avoided.
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Dude, you're in Texas! :p
 
1201 said:
Sometimes I don't understand us solar people. You've got people asking if an inverter can run their electric dryer, when there is plenty of sun outside for free to dry your clothes with- no inverter or batteries needed. Its like people don't even want to try-even a little- to cut back.
Oh by the way, drying clothes outside-there's 6kw of demand avoided.
Click to expand...
Yep we use the outside Laundry line in the Shed for almost 70% of our laundry.
Running a dryer for two loads is about 6-8KWh of wasted solar power.
 
The bottom line is is these "demand fees" just don't make sense to the average consumer. You have to go through a lot of work to even understand what it means and then a lot more work to figure out what is causing it in your specific case. If they switched to a time of use billing (which was the other option my utility company didn't go with) it is very easy for the average consumer to understand. This really feels more like another fee they can get away with to make more money without any ability for the average consumer to do anything about.
 
rhino said:
The bottom line is is these "demand fees" just don't make sense to the average consumer. You have to go through a lot of work to even understand what it means and then a lot more work to figure out what is causing it in your specific case. If they switched to a time of use billing (which was the other option my utility company didn't go with) it is very easy for the average consumer to understand. This really feels more like another fee they can get away with to make more money without any ability for the average consumer to do anything about.
Click to expand...
You should check out aps in Phoenix. They have usage, time of use, AND demand fees. Also about 12 other fees on the monthly bill.
 
Hedges said:
I always ignored that stuff about "must be level", but it matters for condensing dryers.
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Bad idea!
If you want to get the most life out of compressors and Motors it is must be close to 100% level.
Any offset causes uneven wear in the motors and it is even more of a problem in compressors because of oil distribution .
 
rhino said:
The bottom line is is these "demand fees" just don't make sense to the average consumer. You have to go through a lot of work to even understand what it means and then a lot more work to figure out what is causing it in your specific case. If they switched to a time of use billing (which was the other option my utility company didn't go with) it is very easy for the average consumer to understand. This really feels more like another fee they can get away with to make more money without any ability for the average consumer to do anything about.
Click to expand...
Personally, I think demand fees might be easier to understand for most people. One of my local utilities offer residential 3 TOU plans that are very similar to other and mind numbingly confusing when you try to dig into them.

Regardless, the deck is increasingly stacked against the consumers more and more every day.
 
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