Interesting Email from my electrical Co-op

Got an Email from the Co-op the other day. I thought it was interesting especially concerning the State changes to Net metering installations. Arkansas has mandated that electrical companies provide a 1 to 1 net meter arrangement. As you would guess this meant the companies put many obstacles in place to discourage grid tie setups. With the latest rounds from the State it looks like the old agreed setups can continue without export meters till 2030 but new ones will be required to have the dual meter setups. I am sure that in spite of the "We are here to help you " the hoops and cost to get a new interconnect agreement is mind blowing.

As to the less than 2% consumer adoption of solar generation I expect that is simply the grid tie ones the Co-op has officially allowed. I think there is a great deal more unnoticed or approved setups. Off grid especially. Probably the biggest reason for limited PV adoption is the low electrical rates of ~8cents per kWh though the monthly connection fees have more than doubled to about $24/mo.

That's some nice "Word Smithing". Definitely went out of their way to discourage Solar but without explicitly bashing it.

You are correct, with rates at 8 cents per kWh there isn't much financial incentive. Unless the area you live in has frequent power outages then maybe from a convenience perspective solar with battery makes sense.

Seems like they are addressing the unhappy customers. Most likely they had a few victims of some solar installation sales tactics like "the electric company will pay you" and "no more electric bill". That customer likely never did any fact checking, just signed up.

Most of that email seems like they want to separate themselves from any potential sales hype and point you towards the document that they follow.

BentleyJ said:

.. Unless the area you live in has frequent power outages then maybe from a convenience perspective solar with battery makes sense.

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Power outages used to be a pretty common occurrence when I moved here 26 years ago. However it is much less so now. Lots of improvement was done to the infrastructure as well as more frequent maintenance of utility line corridors and increased right of way sizes. Most power outages, like a 4.5hr one the area had last week, are of a few hours duration versus days and weeks.

seneysolar said:

Seems like they are addressing the unhappy customers. Most likely they had a few victims of some solar installation sales tactics like "the electric company will pay you" and "no more electric bill". That customer likely never did any fact checking, just signed up.

Most of that email seems like they want to separate themselves from any potential sales hype and point you towards the document that they follow.

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There is that.

Mattb4 said:

Probably the biggest reason for limited PV adoption is the low electrical rates of ~8cents per kWh

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I agree with that. Some of the reason would also be the difficulty of applying for Net Metering. When high rates and difficult process to apply for Net Metering come together, like they did in Hawaii, then you have a death spiral for the utilities. It was easier and quicker just to install batteries and no export solar than go through the process in Hawaii. Many did, including my brother who installed solar and a Tesla Powerwall.

My Coop has sent similar with a little more blunt language making it clear if anyone comes around representing a partnership with them to please call the business office before letting the person into your home. They make it clear that NO such agreements exist and they will neither sell you a solar install nor allow a solar install company represent that they are in any way a partner. This seems along the same lines as the gas company sends out and says none of their personal will every ask to access the home without prior written notice and a badge with work order.

Some of the elderly around here were robbed with the bait and switch tactics.

The emails from the poco include links to how to apply for net metering and what questions to ask before signing a contract for solar. They even have it on their website how to do the net metering if you are DIY - simple stuff - 1 line drawing, NEC 2020 followed, inspection is required from the AHJ prior to the poco sign off. All solar must be locked out until the final poco sign off. Then they will watch you turn it on and give it a once over to check for hot spots. They also have a program where they pay you to use your batteries $30 a month for 30k or $60 for a 60k battery, a list of compatible AIO for this (Sol-Ark being the one I remember), but they interact with it to keep the draw down so they only use 40% of your batteries.

I see people making the process to grid tie more difficult than it needs to be. Maybe its because Im in the county with not many rules, but why does the poco or city need to know that one is planning to install batteries? why put that in the application and make it more difficult?

also, can you just permit a very simple system, 4 panels, ground mount, get the interconnection agreement, and then add on later as you wish?

robbob2112 said:

.. They even have it on their website how to do the net metering if you are DIY - simple stuff - 1 line drawing, NEC 2020 followed, inspection is required from the AHJ prior to the poco sign off. ...

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Is your location 1 to 1? Because Arkansas mandates this there has been several utilities in my State that put up barriers such as engineering sign off and liability insurance. Not to mention slow approval with frequent resubmits. Last year the State had to become involved and part of these new metering rules are the results. But like any new regulation designed to simplify things the side effects can be making it all more difficult.

I can see it from the utility side that solar from residential suppliers is a pain in the rear to deal with. To have to subsidize it is even worse.

Mattb4 said:

I can see it from the utility side that solar from residential suppliers is a pain in the rear to deal with. To have to subsidize it is even worse.

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Technology has enabled distributed generation. We saw a similar thing with wireless changing the phone business. This transition will be more difficult than the transition to wireless phone service. To me it is ironic that we broke up the AT&T monopoly only a few years before wireless became ubiquitous only to see the former AT&T subsidiaries rotate and be reacuired.

Mattb4 said:

Is your location 1 to 1? Because Arkansas mandates this there has been several utilities in my State that put up barriers such as engineering sign off and liability insurance. Not to mention slow approval with frequent resubmits. Last year the State had to become involved and part of these new metering rules are the results. But like any new regulation designed to simplify things the side effects can be making it all more difficult.

I can see it from the utility side that solar from residential suppliers is a pain in the rear to deal with. To have to subsidize it is even worse.

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Nope - well sorta and nope -

Excess power fed to the grid is credited to the bank and you can use your own excess power back on a per kwh basis. Once a year there is a true up that is done and the price for true up is wholesale rates capped at $500.

1201 said:

I see people making the process to grid tie more difficult than it needs to be. Maybe its because Im in the county with not many rules, but why does the poco or city need to know that one is planning to install batteries? why put that in the application and make it more difficult?

also, can you just permit a very simple system, 4 panels, ground mount, get the interconnection agreement, and then add on later as you wish?

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Shrug - the rules are there take it or leave it, bitching about it doesn't help.

The AHJ rules are there to keep people from putting solar panels on their roof and having it cave it. The AHJ also mandates building codes that require the builder to allow for a 9ft snow load for the same reason. I realize this isn't the wild west like unincorporated Texas or some other states where you do what you want as long as you aren't in the city, but madating a set of rules to follow also keeps an idiot from starting a grass/forrest fire and burning your house down. Well it at least makes it more difficult, idiots will be idiots no matter the laws in place.

The batteries being rented is totally optional. And the final post-turn on inspection is optional as well. Once they sign off it is your problem after the meter. BUT if there is a material change after they sign off they want notice of it in case they need to adjust the transformer or lines in the area. This keeps them from chasing their tails if there is a problem. And it keeps them from being electricuted by the idiot that doesn't have an auto transfer switch installed. If they have access to your Sol-Ark or one of the others on the list they have the right to turn off the transfer switch built into it if they are renting the batteries for the same reason. If you want to use another brand or different stuff that is fine, but then they require a main disconnect at the meter to be able to turn off power from your house when there is an outage and they need to work on their lines.


They are responsible for their line workers so they have a legitimate interest in what you do on your property when you are hooked up their grid.

Here I have monthly true up.
If I owe them I pay .26
If they owe me I get .30
I can also transfer my overage to others in my county.

robbob2112 said:

Shrug - the rules are there take it or leave it, bitching about it doesn't help.

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Nobody's bitching. Does the ahj or Poco have to know youre installing batteries? It's like putting up your own roadblock in the interconnection process.

robbob2112 said:

The AHJ rules are there to keep people from putting solar panels on their roof and having it cave it.

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That's well and good but that's between you and ahj, not Poco. You can do that after interconnection no? Especially if it makes one's life easier.

The AHJ only cares about the solar panels. The Poco cares about both during or after.

Arkansas net metering is not attractive for me. You only get a credit that does not roll over from year to year, not a payout if you produce more than you consume. They also limit the size of your solar system. I believe new installation deadline is September. After that it will not be available for new customers.

Ah, yes, forgot that, the solar install is limited to your monthly average + 20%. I haven't looked deep enough to see which month they average but shouldn't matter so long as they don't charge for using them as a battery bank.

Danke said:

Arkansas net metering is not attractive for me. ...

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Nor me either. I look at grid tie as being something from the PV paleolithic period anyway. Back when batteries were chunks of lead and you needed a witch's acid brew to make them produce electricity. So expensive, heavy and hazardous that only dedicated solar primitives would want to use them Off grid. For solar to ever be adopted by the masses grid tie was the bridge.

Nowadays, with more modern batteries and AIO's, grid tie no longer has the luster it once did. Like an aging starlet its looks are a thing long gone.

Mattb4 said:

Nor me either. I look at grid tie as being something from the PV paleolithic period anyway. Back when batteries were chunks of lead and you needed a witch's acid brew to make them produce electricity. So expensive, heavy and hazardous that only dedicated solar primitives would want to use them Off grid. For solar to ever be adopted by the masses grid tie was the bridge.

Nowadays, with more modern batteries and AIO's, grid tie no longer has the luster it once did. Like an aging starlet its looks are a thing long gone.

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I agree with this. Doesn't look entirely unfair to me, but then again, I don't believe in full net metering. I live in the service area of the utility that is arguably the most hostile towards rooftop solar and I can understand why they are like that.

Too much rooftop solar does cause problems on the grid. First, the local distribution grid was not designed to handle two way power transmission, so the necessary redundancies/safety features are not present for that. Because of this, the power company obviously has a vested interest to make sure anyone installing solar - or any generator for that matter - is doing so with the appropriate equipment because they don't want their equipment or employees getting damaged as a result of improper installation. Second, solar doesn't generate during the entire diurnal peak of power demand on the grid, creating the duck curve problem if enough solar is installed. This duck curve problem requires the utility to ramp up generation in an expensive way.

SSC00 said:

Too much rooftop solar does cause problems on the grid. First, the local distribution grid was not designed to handle two way power transmission, so the necessary redundancies/safety features are not present for that. Because of this, the power company obviously has a vested interest to make sure anyone installing solar - or any generator for that matter - is doing so with the appropriate equipment because they don't want their equipment or employees getting damaged as a result of improper installation. Second, solar doesn't generate during the entire diurnal peak of power demand on the grid, creating the duck curve problem if enough solar is installed. This duck curve problem requires the utility to ramp up generation in an expensive way.

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I can imagine there being a point that two way power transmission becomes an issue, however I think in our current 'real world' practical application it seems unlikely to be causing much of an issue, right?

Take my area for example, I can't imagine we're anywhere near 10% adoption, but let's say we are. In my mind the power generated by 1 in 10 homes really only heads out to the very, very local grid, IE the immediate neighbor. I can't fathom a scenario where the power being generated by most home installations is getting anywhere near reaching the "greater grid", right?

A 20kW solar array, while sizable to most homes, certainly is going to be eaten up by just a couple extra homes nearby, which I would imagine is just easing the burden on the grid. I understand that would become different if you're in a more rural area and your next neighbor isn't for a mile or so down the road, but again in this situation I just don't see the grid being anywhere near "taxed".

Am I missing something?

Watts Happening said:

I can imagine there being a point that two way power transmission becomes an issue, however I think in our current 'real world' practical application it seems unlikely to be causing much of an issue, right?

Take my area for example, I can't imagine we're anywhere near 10% adoption, but let's say we are. In my mind the power generated by 1 in 10 homes really only heads out to the very, very local grid, IE the immediate neighbor. I can't fathom a scenario where the power being generated by most home installations is getting anywhere near reaching the "greater grid", right?

A 20kW solar array, while sizable to most homes, certainly is going to be eaten up by just a couple extra homes nearby, which I would imagine is just easing the burden on the grid. I understand that would become different if you're in a more rural area and your next neighbor isn't for a mile or so down the road, but again in this situation I just don't see the grid being anywhere near "taxed".

Am I missing something?

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In some ways yes. The first issue comes when it gets allowed to begin with. The last thing you want is for people to start rapidly installing pure grid-tied systems to get access to full net metering. This could create a near unmanageable problem for the utility. Secondly, as more people install, it creates a cottage industry that is dependent on that regulation to survive. This cottage industry will fight to maintain full net metering for as long as they can keep it in place for their own benefit regardless of how it affects the grid overall.

Two way transmission problems are more of a local issue. First, you don't want to have anything potentially live connecting to the grid incase it goes down or needs work to be done on it. The more points of connection to the grid like this, the more likely a failure will occur. Secondly, its not like all the transformers on the distribution grid are special 'smart' transformers designed to simultaneously handle two way flow (not even sure if this is a product yet either), so that means they will either wear out quicker or they won't be able to perform their job properly.


It would be far better for the grid and the residential solar industry as a whole if people just installed hybrid systems with batteries that could easily be islanded from the grid. That way the full benefits of distributed solar could be realized with almost none of the drawbacks.