diy solar

diy solar

Interesting Email from my electrical Co-op

Of course you have people like me - I want to not be on an island at least not at first when we build the new house. They will need power to build the house after all. I know they could hire a generator for their use but that would get passed along to me in the end cost and I don't want to go the other way and install solar first then worry someone is going to steal the parts that aren't nailed down or even the stuff locked in a bunker and the bunker doors :)

So I will have things originally hooked up so I can easily add solar later and eventually pull the plug. And while I am in that hybrid state I can use the grid to give me the extra current needed to get through the nights and winters until I am sure of what I need.

Also, the new place is an 8 hour drive from here so I can't just drive out on a weeknight/weekend and check on things.
 
Generally electrical Co-ops are not owned by corporations, many were created to fill in the rural gaps that profit making firms decided it was not worth filling. Many go back to the REA days. In most cases they have elected boards elected by the rate payers. Few folks really care about how the power gets to them so some Co-ops are run by small self serving managements that have "rubber stamp" boards. They are going to do what is easiest way to run the utility and keep their jobs. Others are quite progressive, there is large one in NH, NH Electric Cooperative that is always putting "Neversource" to shame for RE initiatives. Eversource is a behemoth and really too large to regulate on a state basis. Coops tend to be non profits and due to their rural nature, the net return on investments is low and they tend to keep what they got running versus upgrading to new tech. Most older power systems were strictly one way distribution, once distributed generation like PV appears, it gets complex and costly quick to meet the technical standards to ensure that the distributed generation does not impact other customers. Interconnection departments required to review and determine system impact are tough to staff as there are very few folks with the background and skills to do the work, there are only a couple of universities that even have bulk electrical power programs and even a graduate of a program required decades to get good at it.

The result is many small Co-op run by long term conservative management supported by passive boards, just adopt the approach to try to delay the inevitable and push upgrades to some future management. I was working with one small Co-op whose staff consisted of a couple of bucket trucks with linesmen, a working linesman foreman, a billing department and manager/engineer. Even with such a small staff, the Co-op members were quite progressive and at one point they installed a landfill gas generation system, long before they became popular. The staff were all long term and liked working with each other and I expect they all could make more money elsewhere. They were quite RE friendly as the board and members supporting the expense to upgrade their systems for some DG.

The other thing to consider is in most cases small Co-ops are not regulated to the same standards that large corporations and even large Co-ops are held to. Generally, PUCs can dictate the big boys to follow state rules but many small co-ops are exempt.

As someone who used to try to install industrial Combined Heat and Power systems that needed to be able to export the grid, I know we had a few projects that made sense for the business but were sidelined by the local small Co-op who always had bought power from the same firms and had no interest in local generation. In at least one case, this kept the local firm from upgrading and expanding their operations which would have hired more people. I also went through several real full out system impact studies at a circuit level and they were extremely frustrating and expensive. Long ago there were large projects that got added to the regional grid that caused substantial impacts and required expensive upgrades and after several of those, FERC ruled that anyone trying to connect to the grid has to pay for the improvements required by the project as determined by system impact study. In most cases the local distribution stations feeding the plant circuits were 1920s vintage. They were connected to the regional grid by copper T-1 lines. Phone companies do not want their copper in electrical substation and required very specialized protections. When we needed to upgrade a circuit in that substation, if it had copper communications, the clients got to pay to upgrade to fiber and install a new comms panel . Utility grade gear is not cheap, figure 300K to swap from copper to fiber and 12 to 18 months of getting the phone company to play with the power company on the client's dime. Most of those substations were set up for power to flow only one way so something called a 3VO upgrade would have to be done to upgrade the equipment for two way power. That could be a 800K upgrade. In several cases, we had to compromise the project as the client could not afford the grid upgrade cost so we put zero export relays in the switch gear to just not export.

Most states have passed rules requiring utilities to have "short form" interconnects for small projects that in theory will not impact the system these depend on grid tied inverters with UL 1471 certifications to drop out the local generation when the local grid is in trouble. Unfortunatley the "guinea pig" for high PV penetration, Hawaii learned that too much snall PV ads up on their system and made it seriously unstable and took several years and major upgrades to get it to work. Hawaii didnt have a choice they mandated the upgrades needed to ge tth system to work but a local co-op is probably out of luck and not covered by state rules so the easy way is to just make it tough. If folks in a Co-op do not like it, it's time for them to see what it takes to get elected to the board. If enough people do, then they can change the local policies but be aware PV has become a hot topic for MAGA folks who oppose renewable because their leader has told them so. The Koch brothers sponsor ALEC and ALEC work down to state, regional and even local level to quash RE legislation and those who support it, so do not be surprised if a local Co-op board election suddenly becomes lopsided where one party is getting checks and support from a national operation.
 
In some ways yes. The first issue comes when it gets allowed to begin with. The last thing you want is for people to start rapidly installing pure grid-tied systems to get access to full net metering. This could create a near unmanageable problem for the utility. Secondly, as more people install, it creates a cottage industry that is dependent on that regulation to survive. This cottage industry will fight to maintain full net metering for as long as they can keep it in place for their own benefit regardless of how it affects the grid overall.

Two way transmission problems are more of a local issue. First, you don't want to have anything potentially live connecting to the grid incase it goes down or needs work to be done on it. The more points of connection to the grid like this, the more likely a failure will occur. Secondly, its not like all the transformers on the distribution grid are special 'smart' transformers designed to simultaneously handle two way flow (not even sure if this is a product yet either), so that means they will either wear out quicker or they won't be able to perform their job properly.


It would be far better for the grid and the residential solar industry as a whole if people just installed hybrid systems with batteries that could easily be islanded from the grid. That way the full benefits of distributed solar could be realized with almost none of the drawbacks.
Having recently spent a fair bit of time with the lineman whom pulled the new conductors for our City required 200a upgrade (we didn’t need it).

I can say that wholeheartedly the “shocking a lineman” thing appears to be WILDLY overstated. Now, don’t get me wrong, I fully support keeping them safe and wouldn’t encourage installing anything that would jeopardize their safety. I would however say, I watched them working on 100% live conductors the entire time, while I sat there astonished I asked questions, many of which pertained to solar and the possibility of backfeeding. They damn near laughed and explained that they more or less treat it like it’s a gun. It’s always loaded, it’s always live, protect yourself accordingly.

They had stories of not backfeeding incidents, but grid recharging incidents that were FAR more worrisome to them. A relay or secondary connection to another portion of the grid goes live and you’re instantly dealing with unstoppable amounts of power rather than a rogue backyard generator etc.

That said, I can’t intelligently comment on the transformer side of things, other than to say they didn’t seem to bat an eye at my system backfeeding our near 40 year old transformer. Their only mention was how lucky I was to upgrade early, sooner or later the transformer won’t have capacity for someone to upgrade and that person will bear 100% of the cost of the new larger unit.

Anyhow, it’s all food for thought.
 
Nor me either. I look at grid tie as being something from the PV paleolithic period anyway. Back when batteries were chunks of lead and you needed a witch's acid brew to make them produce electricity. So expensive, heavy and hazardous that only dedicated solar primitives would want to use them Off grid. For solar to ever be adopted by the masses grid tie was the bridge.

Nowadays, with more modern batteries and AIO's, grid tie no longer has the luster it once did. Like an aging starlet its looks are a thing long gone.
“PV paleolithic period” 😂

If I was going to stay in Minnesota, I might consider net metering. They allow up to 40K and payback 1:1. I know some people here put up solar just to make money.
 
Got an Email from the Co-op the other day. I thought it was interesting especially concerning the State changes to Net metering installations. Arkansas has mandated that electrical companies provide a 1 to 1 net meter arrangement. As you would guess this meant the companies put many obstacles in place to discourage grid tie setups. With the latest rounds from the State it looks like the old agreed setups can continue without export meters till 2030 but new ones will be required to have the dual meter setups. I am sure that in spite of the "We are here to help you " the hoops and cost to get a new interconnect agreement is mind blowing.

As to the less than 2% consumer adoption of solar generation I expect that is simply the grid tie ones the Co-op has officially allowed. I think there is a great deal more unnoticed or approved setups. Off grid especially. Probably the biggest reason for limited PV adoption is the low electrical rates of ~8cents per kWh though the monthly connection fees have more than doubled to about $24/mo.

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It’s been my experience in life that unless it’s your Momma or someone you owe a lot of money to, when anyone says “ I’m here to help you” they are playing ya somehow.
 
I can say that wholeheartedly the “shocking a lineman” thing appears to be WILDLY overstated. Now, don’t get me wrong, I fully support keeping them safe and wouldn’t encourage installing anything that would jeopardize their safety. I would however say, I watched them working on 100% live conductors the entire time, while I sat there astonished I asked questions, many of which pertained to solar and the possibility of backfeeding. They damn near laughed and explained that they more or less treat it like it’s a gun. It’s always loaded, it’s always live, protect yourself accordingly.
Yes, but the risk goes from minimal to certainly not minimal if half the customers on the distribution circuit put solar on their roofs, so I don't consider it a nothing burger. Again, its one of those things where it becomes a problem if it goes too far, so why put a policy in place that will allow things to get out of hand?


PV has become a hot topic for MAGA folks who oppose renewable because their leader has told them so. The Koch brothers sponsor ALEC and ALEC work down to state, regional and even local level to quash RE legislation and those who support it,
None of that is true. Most right wing people do not care if you put solar on your roof or your yard, as long as it doesn't affect the grid. Reason being is that they dont want to deal with this:
Most older power systems were strictly one way distribution, once distributed generation like PV appears, it gets complex and costly quick to meet the technical standards to ensure that the distributed generation does not impact other customers.

Hawaii learned that too much snall PV ads up on their system and made it seriously unstable and took several years and major upgrades to get it to work. Hawaii didnt have a choice they mandated the upgrades needed to ge tth system to work but a local co-op is probably out of luck and not covered by state rules so the easy way is to just make it tough

Interconnection departments required to review and determine system impact are tough to staff as there are very few folks with the background and skills to do the work, there are only a couple of universities that even have bulk electrical power programs and even a graduate of a program required decades to get good at it.

Co op boards are elected and the vast majority of people want to have cheap energy. Few people want to vote to radically change the grid to some primarily distributed generation structure where it provides marginal benefits with higher costs. This is where the whole 'utility death spiral' concept came from. Why go in that direction? Sure there may be some Co-ops that are resistant to industrial CHP that could benefit their system maybe, but they may not even have the staff to deal with it properly. I work with water/wastewater municipalities and smaller municipalities have staffing issues all the time. Sure they could pay more, but that would require raising the rates, and raising the rates means customers will pay more, and paying more gets a call to the local elected official and pressure is put to never raise rates again.

Its also not clear how to have a grid that is super majority - like 85-90%+ - variable renewables yet either. There are no cost effective, geographically universal forms of long term storage that work at scale available yet. Both reasons are why they oppose the variable renewable energy mandates.
 
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