Flooded led acid batteries

I want to discuss what's really a better buy Lithium or flooded led acid? I say other that weight flooded led acid. Here's why; if you take the price of a 100 ah battleborn battery of 950 bucks compared to the 6volt golf cart batteries I have at $115.00 and 135 ah. I can buy 8 of the golf carts. Now my two batteries going on 3 years old, thats what will use as the life span. At a 135 ah useable that's more ah tha the Battleborns. And I can buy 4 sets of batteries and 12 years of life. Two years longer than what the battleborns are warranted for. Or you could buy 8 all at once and have a huge bank that if maintained right with my needs way ahead of the game.
Am I right or wrong? please let me know.

Let us keep this simple.
Lead Acid / Agm: If it says 150AH that is total capacity BUT you can ONLY use 50% (75Ah) because if you discharge lower than that your damaging the batteries. Requires maintenance, Electrolyte filling and Gravity testing. They off-gas Hydrogen as well and take longer to charge. Poor or lack of good & near religious maintenance practices and you end up with Lead Anchors.

LifePo4 : CAN be discharged to 100%, so if it says 100AH you get 100AH. Most of us, leave 10% at the bottom & 10% at the top, this pushes the cycles up and extends their lives. Require NO Maintenance, do NOT Off-gas and Charge quickly.

Battle Borns are expensive drop in's with 10 year warranty and Assembled in USA. You can build DOUBLE that capacity for the same price if you want to DIY it.

I myself am moving off of a 22kWh Rolls Surette S-500 Based Lead Battery bank to a 21.8kWh LFP bank as the Lead is being retired for the greenhouse project.

Steve_S said:

Let us keep this simple.
Lead Acid / Agm: If it says 150AH that is total capacity BUT you can ONLY use 50% (75Ah) because if you discharge lower than that your damaging the batteries. Requires maintenance, Electrolyte filling and Gravity testing. They off-gas Hydrogen as well and take longer to charge. Poor or lack of good & near religious maintenance practices and you end up with Lead Anchors.

LifePo4 : CAN be discharged to 100%, so if it says 100AH you get 100AH. Most of us, leave 10% at the bottom & 10% at the top, this pushes the cycles up and extends their lives. Require NO Maintenance, do NOT Off-gas and Charge quickly.

Battle Borns are expensive drop in's with 10 year warranty and Assembled in USA. You can build DOUBLE that capacity for the same price if you want to DIY it.

I myself am moving off of a 22kWh Rolls Surette S-500 Based Lead Battery bank to a 21.8kWh LFP bank as the Lead is being retired for the greenhouse project.

Click to expand...

Yes I know about the discharging to 50 % the golf cart batteries are 135 ah per battery, 270 for the two

I'm not saying the technology isn't better, I absolutely agree. But if I only had 1000 bucks and had to buy batteries for my off grid cabin 6 volt batteries are the best buy. Even with the cheaper batteries like mighty max lithium
Iron phosphates I still would rather buy 8 golf carts.

I dunno anothing about "Mighty Max", never heard of them.

4x 280AH cells = 12/280AH US $510.16 with S&H
8x 280AH cells = 24V/280AH or 12V/560AH US $1,093.52 with S&H
1 BMS per pack say $100 +/-

REF to Known Good Supplier of Good Grade-A cells: (Xuba Electronics)

A big flaw in your math is the charge rate of FLA vs. LFP... lead needs much more time to recharge. It needs bulk rate, AND trickle charge. So, of the 50% usable capacity, only 50% of that gets quick charge. The rest can take days of trickling in charge... wasting much of the solar array’s capacity.

Steve_S said:

I dunno anothing about "Mighty Max", never heard of them.

4x 280AH cells = 12/280AH US $510.16 with S&H
8x 280AH cells = 24V/280AH or 12V/560AH US $1,093.52 with S&H
1 BMS per pack say $100 +/-

REF to Known Good Supplier of Good Grade-A cells: (Xuba Electronics)

Hot Rechargeable 3.2v 280ah Lifepo4 Lithium Battery For 12v 48v 96v Solar System - Buy Lithium Ion Battery,Rechargeable Lithium Ion Battery,Lifepo4 Battery Solar Product on Alibaba.com

Hot Rechargeable 3.2v 280ah Lifepo4 Lithium Battery For 12v 48v 96v Solar System , Find Complete Details about Hot Rechargeable 3.2v 280ah Lifepo4 Lithium Battery For 12v 48v 96v Solar System,Lithium Ion Battery,Rechargeable Lithium Ion Battery,Lifepo4 Battery Solar from Lithium Ion Batteries...

www.alibaba.com

Click to expand...

I'm just a 59 year old truck driver just learning the ins and outs of the DIY packs. I wouldn't feel comfortable delving into that yet. But your cost example makes it way more affordable and attractive.

If you had a 95Ah daily consumption.

Two 6v golf cart batteries cost about $250. You have to recharge everyday or sulfation will buildup. So you aim for a conservative c10 charge rate + load (4a). This comes to about 600-700w of solar accounting for winter and local climate. Now you will need alternative charging if youre anywhere but the desert southwest. A modest inverter generator + charger should cost around $700. $450 if you want a loud open frame version and about $1200 for large duel-fuel with starter. OR you can skip all that and buy a new set bi-annually and spend $1200 over 10 years...either way

So youre cheap batteries WITH PROPER CHARGING equipment cost about $2000.

A lithium doesnt need to be recharged so it doesnt need the secondary charge source nor does it need to spend half the solar day in current limiting mode thus it needs drastically less solar. 500W-600w easily will cover everything. Now even the most expensive lifepo4 on the market is cheaper. Not factoring in how much longer it will last.

Then factor you can get 200-300AH raw cells for $600-700. We all love to penny pinch. Lead is penny wise and dollar foolish and frankly has zero business in the discussion of 24/7 load solar systems. Now if you want a simple weekend setup say in a cabin or camper thats a different story. Lead is the better option.

Cooltruckin said:

And I can buy 4 sets of batteries and 12 years of life.

Click to expand...

That seems like a very long lived lead acid battery.
Can you provide a link?
How many charge cycles at 50% DOD do you expect to get?

Flooded lead acid batteries need to be watered which is a chore.
They also need special handling and storage because of the hydrogen gas and the acid.
On the plus side they can be charged below 0 Celsius.

smoothJoey said:

That seems like a very long lived lead acid battery.
Can you provide a link?
How many charge cycles at 50% DOD do you expect to get?

Flooded lead acid batteries need to be watered which is a chore.
They also need special handling and storage because of the hydrogen gas and the acid.
On the plus side they can be charged below 0 Celsius.

Click to expand...

I love how suddenly everyone gets 10 years+ from lead and never has premature death from sulfation now that lithium is a viable alternative. In doing this since 2009 I have literally never see anyone in real life where I can personally verify, replace a lead battery due to shorting a cell from sheer cycle count. Especially with 6v's.

Ped said:

I love how suddenly everyone gets 10 years+ from lead and never has premature death from sulfation now that lithium is a viable alternative. In doing this since 2009 I have literally never see anyone in real life where I can personally verify, replace a lead battery due to shorting a cell from sheer cycle count. Especially with 6v's.

Click to expand...

But I have seen piles of Deep Cycle Leads (read $$$) piled up for recycle at the local Battery Warehouse, most suffering extreme sulfation. Never fails, 1st timers & Lead = Premature death. Hell, I learned by sending some off to Battery Ever After too ,years ago.

Steve_S said:

Let us keep this simple.
Lead Acid / Agm: If it says 150AH that is total capacity BUT you can ONLY use 50% (75Ah) because if you discharge lower than that your damaging the batteries.

Click to expand...

Discharging lead acid batteries below 50% will not kill them. Leaving them in a discharged state - 25% or 75% - for longer than a few days will cause hard-to-reverse sulfation.

If lead acid batteries are used in an application, there must adequate charging capacity available - enough capacity to deliver the discharge amount and some excess charge (15-25%). If this done after every discharge, most brands of flooded cell lead acid batteries may be discharged by 75% without affecting the overall life (lifetime amp-hrs).

source: I and several of my neighbors have been off-grid long term (30+ yrs) relying on solar, generators & lead acid batteries.

Generally about c10 + load. On a 200ah bank thats about 25A or 500w. 500w is about 200ah a summer day. If discharging 50% thats 200% solar capacity required and not yet accounting for low ouput days if a 2nd charge source is not utilized.

Using lifelines AGM formula (dod/100) x (ah/C - L) + 3ab with 15% over production (especially on FLA with higher internal resistance) .5 x 200 / (15 - 3) + 3 = 11.33 hrs to full. Thats assured sulfation death within months.

Now we have winter to factor in at 4.5hrs of usable sunlight; .5 x 200/60 + 3 = 4.66 hrs. So it takes 60A then we factor load and 20% irradiance reduction on flat mounted panels = ~1,400w of solar.

So you need somewhere in the range of 700% actual max production figures overall to charge 100ah of lead year round + generator for extended clouds. And again were using formulas for the lowest inter al resistence type and brand on the market so thats very conservative. Were also ignoring the fact 200AH of FLA can even handle 60A charge rate anyway.

AGM's are compromise. Most, if not all, that are off-grid and rely on batteries don't use AGMs. My comments about exceeding the 50% discharge limit are for flooded cell batteries. These batteries can be charged at higher rates. Besides, there are several tricks for pushing the rate even more.

The key to getting the most out of flooded cell LA batteries is the ability to fully (125%) charge them after each charge and keeping them in float when not used. Ask any owner of a warehouse that has a fleet of electric fork-lift trucks. Their batteries are heavily used and do last a long time.

Thats true. But they have 16-24hrs to do it. A winter 4hr overcast day getting that 125% before sunset is a very different matter. Sure you can run a generator everyday or you can just buy the proper batteries and save yourself the money and headache.

It reminds me of my stepdad who would rather buy a broke down car for $1500, spend 2 grand and a month fixing it rather than spend $3000 for a one that runs from the get go.

Ped said:

Thats true. But they have 16-24hrs to do it. A winter 4hr overcast day getting that 125% before sunset is a very different matter. Sure you can run a generator everyday or you can just buy the proper batteries and save yourself the money and headache.

Click to expand...

Flooded cell type batteries are the "proper" batteries for off-grid - very simple & straight forward. Most of us have a lot of solar panels for the very reason you cite - winter time. Once in a while, we run the generator to bulk charge & let solar finish off the process. Living off-grid means you have to be self-reliant & be skilled in several things -from chopping wood for the fireplace, to being able to check the sp. gravity of the electrolyte. Would never trade my flooded cell batteries for AGMs. It's like trading in a stick shift for an automatic

Lol wut?

Ped said:

Thats true. But they have 16-24hrs to do it. A winter 4hr overcast day getting that 125% before sunset is a very different matter. Sure you can run a generator everyday or you can just buy the proper batteries and save yourself the money and headache.

It reminds me of my stepdad who would rather buy a broke down car for $1500, spend 2 grand and a month fixing it rather than spend $3000 for a one that runs from the get go.

Click to expand...

That's real funny you say that because I would rather buy a junker and fix it up than buy one that's done and ready to drive.

To save money?

fat_old_sun said:

Flooded cell type batteries are the "proper" batteries for off-grid - very simple & straight forward. Most of us have a lot of solar panels for the very reason you cite - winter time. Once in a while, we run the generator to bulk charge & let solar finish off the process. Living off-grid means you have to be self-reliant & be skilled in several things -from chopping wood for the fireplace, to being able to check the sp. gravity of the electrolyte. Would never trade my flooded cell batteries for AGMs. It's like trading in a stick shift for an automatic

Click to expand...

In my comparison the price of one
(950 bucks) battleborn battery, you can buy 8 6volt flooded led acids. You can buy them all at once for a 540 ah bank. or buy two at a time every 3 years and that would be 12 years 2 years over the warranty of the battleborn. You cant compare batteries you have to compare the initial cost. But I can see I'm in a minority witch is cool that's what makes us human.