diy solar

diy solar

Sooo... its 12F outside, my power is out until tomorrow night...

One question I have about these types of setups is there is not a common busbar for the breakers to connect to as we do in the US. Do they simply daisy chain with wire all the separate circuits?

ETA: Did some googling and I see there are availble screw on bus bars of different configuration you can get that handle a daisy chain style hookup. Not as robust as a big solid busbar our CB panels in the US use. Interesting how countries do this stuff different.

Yeah, its rather different depending on the country.

Also, the available connections to the grid are different for each country. Here in NL we used to have 1x25A (single phase 230V) with an oldschool meltable fuse. That got upgraded to 35A, and somewhere in the 90's became 40A with a breaker (which you could reset yourself - the old fuses were behind a panel which only an installer had access to).
Nowadays, 3x 25A (three-phase) is common. But in all occasions for normal househoulds, currents are low, so no need to have big solid busbars.

There are as you saw screw-on busbars to connect up to 4 breakers on a single RCD (which is, in NL, the max allowed). They can be bought pre-configured: 4x 16A circuit and a RCB: https://www.sandervunderink.nl/aardlekschakelaar-2-polig-met-4-lichtgroepen-b16.html

For some small appartments (mainly used by social housing) there are systems with integrated busbars available. You just snap-on a circuit and the backplane acts as busbar. ( ABB busboard - see eg
for an example)

We don't have massive 50-100A connections by default.. (but we are also not used to have massive HVAC systems as in the USA, so much less need for high currents).
3-phase does however have some benefits when charging an EV, so it does make sense new houses nowadays have 3-phase systems (since almost all new company cars the last few years are EV).


As far as the power outages... the grid is pretty reliable here in NL, we don't have overhead cables which are easier to fail due to snow/trees/winds. If we did have more outages, I would go for a few cheap Chinese diesel heaters. Those can be run easily on a limited battery and still provide sufficient heat..
 
There's a fourth transfer of heat.
When I see a pretty girl, I get very warm.

Well.. for me thats a loop which I can't get out... Without electricity, p*nhub is unreachable thus i'm still getting cold... currently, a diesel heater is easier to obtain and cheaper than a GF. (and doesn't have a headache every month)

Ow and those getting me hot are usually in summer when its already wayyy too bloody hot.
 
The idea is that it makes it better than the candle alone because it helps transfer the miniscule amount of heat to your body and other surfaces.

It's the reason a kerosene heater heats the metal body of the heater instead of just being an open wick sticking out of a container of fuel.
Once again that is just directed heat. Heck you can take a magnifying glass and burn things. Or you can warm up a stone in a fireplace to put at the foot of your bed. Don't see many of those old time bed warmers that you filled up with hot ash and coals around these days.

ETA: Merry Christmas everyone! I hope that all have weathered the storm. Getting close to time for me to make my traditional Christmas frozen burrito dinner.

Recipe:
3 frozen burritos of your favorite type.
Salsa
Lettuce chopped up
Diced sweet onion
Olives cut and quartered
Sour cream
Shredded mozzerella cheese
Shredded Sharp cheddar cheese
Diced fresh tomatoes if you have them

Warm burritos for a minute and half in microwave (turn over every 1/2 minute). Spoon on salsa and warm for another minute. Cover with shredded mozarella and cheddar. 2 more minutes in microwave. Cover with lettuce, olives, onions, tomatoes, some more salsa and top with sour cream.
 
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No one is arguing that heat is not being created. My point is that it is minuscule compared to the BTU heating requirements of a space in a home. Put out a hundred or a thousand candles under pots and I am sure you will get some great heat (if you do not asphyxiate).
Actually, as a licensed hvac contractor, I can confirm radiant heat makes a room FAR more comfortable to human occupants that simple btu’s would imply.
No, the room will not increase in temperature, but YOU will be more comfortable. Radiant heat directly warms your body, and the wall surface, reducing drafts, and keeping a person warm efficiently.

It’s why boilers and radiant floors are so popular. They make the occupants comfortable, and don’t need to make the room warm.

Same structure needs to be heated above 65 degrees with convective heat appliances, but radiant heat lets objects and people be completely comfortable in a 40 degree space.
 
Significant radiant heat from a few candles? Lets see some real, repeatable data; experimentation revealed right here on diyforum. Otherwise it is belief that conquers Delta T discomfort.
 
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BTU's are BTU's and candles put out a set amount. Clay, thermal mass storage, oil filled radiators, copper plates, ceramics and other hyped heater designs are simply traps for gullible people to spend money on.
Depends if you are talking about thermal comfort or temperature, and further depends on insulation.
A big part of thermal comfort is mean radiant temperature. Wall insulation is primarily conductive heat transfer, so radiant heat isn't lost quite as quickly as convective heat.
 
Significant radiant heat from a few candles? Lets see some real, repeatable data; experimentation revealed right here on diyforum. Otherwise it is belief that conquers Delta T discomfort.
All folks are saying is that the difference is similar in the heating between a conventional oven and a microwave oven. Both take energy in and make things hot, the difference is the microwave doesn't the make air hot, only the objects. If a system isn't heating the air, it takes less energy overall to make things feel warm.

Is it myth or is it real?
It was an interesting topic so I started looking into it. Please correct anything I got wrong, but depending on the assumptions it looks like it can help, but not in a big way.

A tealight candle outputs about 35 watts, so at 10 watts/sqft heating you'd need ~41 to heat both the air and objects of a typical 12x12 room.

Experimental evidence says a tealight candle would heat the surface of a terracotta pot to around 270℉.

This is quite a bit hotter than the Radiant systems @Supervstech mentions, so the infrared wavelengths would be shorter.

Infrared heaters have filaments that operate at about 1830℉ for MWIR and 3,270 °F for NIR (even shorter wavelengths).
WAVE.jpg

The conversion from a terractta pot wouldn't be very efficient as most of the heat from the system would still be convective. But the theory is, every percentage of the energy converted into radiant heat would heat the objects rather than the air.

How warm is Comfortable?
Being "warm enough" is complicated. Skin temperature is usually over 92°F and comfortable room temperature is around 72°F, so most folks are comfortable when losing heat with a ΔT around 20 to 25°F. When it's 62°F the gradient is >30°F and bodies start to lose heat faster than they are comfortable with.

With radiant heat, the room's air temperature can be lower because in addition to the body's ΔT loss, the body gains heat from radiant energy.

Over time, the air will heat up as objects convect heat into air. So in a completely closed system, it doesn't make a difference. In reality, there is air exchange with cold outside air, so less heat in the air means less heat escapes the system. In a forced air system, it's worse than you might expect as the fan's operation causes a partial vacuum inside the house drawing in more air than you'd like (it's why radiators are more efficient than forced air systems). I've heard that the average air-exchange in a house is 1 to 2x per hour.

If the primary benefit is not having to heat the air, how much energy does the air take to heat? What are we saving?

We know that Q = c x (m×ΔT) where c is the specific heat, Q the energy, ΔT the energy change, and m the mass of the object.
Using that, we can calculate the amount of energy needed to heat just the air to see if it's worth it.

The specific heat of dry air is approximately 0.24 Btu/lb°F and for water vapor is 0.45 Btu/lb°F. At 40% humidity and 60℉, it's about 0.4.
Air's mass is 0.0765 lb/cu ft at those conditions.

With an 8' ceiling, a 12x12 room would have roughly 1152 sqft of air, which would be a mass of 88 lbs. To raise the temperature of the 12x12' room 1 degree F would be Q = .4 Btu/lb°F (88 x 1) = 35 BTUs (about 10 watts).

With the assumption of 10 watts/sqft heating is required, 1 air exchange per hour, and ΔT of 30°F between inside and outside, then heating the air alone would require 300 watt hours or about 10 of the 41 candles calculated earlier. But, given the terracotta pot isn't 100% efficient at converting to radiant, you'd only be able to get rid of some fraction of them.

Summary - TL;DR
In a closed system, energy is energy and it doesn't make a difference between radiant or convective heat. But homes aren't closed systems and with 1 to 2 air exchanges per hour not heating the air can save energy. Terracotta pots can change some convective energy into radiant energy, so probably marginally better than burning a candle directly.
 
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All folks are saying is that the difference is similar in the heating between a conventional oven and a microwave oven. Both take energy in and make things hot, the difference is the microwave doesn't the make air hot, only the objects. If a system isn't heating the air, it takes less energy overall to make things feel warm.

Is it myth or is it real?
It was an interesting topic so I started looking into it. Please correct anything I got wrong, but depending on the assumptions it looks like it can help, but not in a big way.

A tealight candle outputs about 35 watts, so at 10 watts/sqft heating you'd need ~41 to heat both the air and objects of a typical 12x12 room.

Experimental evidence says a tealight candle would heat the surface of a terracotta pot to around 270℉.

This is quite a bit hotter than the Radiant systems @Supervstech mentions, so the infrared wavelengths would be shorter.

Infrared heaters have filaments that operate at about 1830℉ for MWIR and 3,270 °F for NIR (even shorter wavelengths).
WAVE.jpg

The conversion from a terractta pot wouldn't be very efficient as most of the heat from the system would still be convective. But the theory is, every percentage of the energy converted into radiant heat would heat the objects rather than the air.

How warm is Comfortable?
Being "warm enough" is complicated. Skin temperature is usually over 92°F and comfortable room temperature is around 72°F, so most folks are comfortable when losing heat with a ΔT around 20 to 25°F. When it's 62°F the gradient is >30°F and bodies start to lose heat faster than they are comfortable with.

With radiant heat, the room's air temperature can be lower because in addition to the body's ΔT loss, the body gains heat from radiant energy.

Over time, the air will heat up as objects convect heat into air. So in a completely closed system, it doesn't make a difference. In reality, there is air exchange with cold outside air, so less heat in the air means less heat escapes the system. In a forced air system, it's worse than you might expect as the fan's operation causes a partial vacuum inside the house drawing in more air than you'd like (it's why radiators are more efficient than forced air systems). I've heard that the average air-exchange in a house is 1 to 2x per hour.

If the primary benefit is not having to heat the air, how much energy does the air take to heat? What are we saving?

We know that Q = c x (m×ΔT) where c is the specific heat, Q the energy, ΔT the energy change, and m the mass of the object.
Using that, we can calculate the amount of energy needed to heat just the air to see if it's worth it.

The specific heat of dry air is approximately 0.24 Btu/lb°F and for water vapor is 0.45 Btu/lb°F. At 40% humidity and 60℉, it's about 0.4.
Air's mass is 0.0765 lb/cu ft at those conditions.

With an 8' ceiling, a 12x12 room would have roughly 1152 sqft of air, which would be a mass of 88 lbs. To raise the temperature of the 12x12' room 1 degree F would be Q = .4 Btu/lb°F (88 x 1) = 35 BTUs (about 10 watts).

With the assumption of 10 watts/sqft heating is required, 1 air exchange per hour, and ΔT of 30°F between inside and outside, then heating the air alone would require 300 watt hours or about 10 of the 41 candles calculated earlier. But, given the terracotta pot isn't 100% efficient at converting to radiant, you'd only be able to get rid of some fraction of them.

Summary - TL;DR
In a closed system, energy is energy and it doesn't make a difference between radiant or convective heat. But homes aren't closed systems and with 1 to 2 air exchanges per hour and not heating the air can save energy. Terracotta pots can change some convective energy into radiant energy, so probably marginally better than burning a candle directly.

Brilliant bit of maths , I think you're spot on

I normally put 5 or 6 tea lights under one heater , does that change the math significantly ?
 
I normally put 5 or 6 tea lights under one heater , does that change the math significantly ?
It would raise the temperature of the pot, shorten the wavelengths and increase object penetration. So potentially yes.
But, duct-taping seams in a door to reduce air exchange would probably do a lot more. Anyone who's looked into passive houses can probably tell you a lot more about where the hot spots for air exchange are occurring.

Update: Probably a good time to walk around with an IR camera or IR Gun.
 
Not sure making a candle filled room more airtight is going to help carbon monoxide concentrations, consumed oxygen and various products of combustion.

Hey if it works for you.
 
Boy howdy if I had to pay someone for the quality analysis provided by svetz on post #90 it would have cost north of $1200 I’m thinking. Much obliged!

Anyone know of a thread here about using the sun to heat living space without machines or specified equipment? We’ve been at that for a while and definitely open to other ideas.

Hoping diysolar members and viewers remain safe and sufficiently comfortable during this time of drastic heat reduction.
 
So people in Condos or Apt buildings:
Power goes out, during winter storm, could be several days before utility electric returns, so what can they do to be prepared?
They are limited on what modifications if any then can make to the electrical service, and 2 days without heat when it is 12F out, is not going to be nice for those 48 hours.
For power, a Jackery or Bluetti will provide some power for phones/comms a bit of light - small LED lamps would be a good option.
Heating is a bit tougher, I recall many decades ago I lived in a Apt building downtown Toronto, Storm knocked out power, so the heating system which in our building was hydronic, stopped circulating - no pumps - and being an older apt block no back up generators either. I got a 100-foot hose from my work van (yeah construction guy) and I hooked it up to the kitchen sink, ran it through all the rooms and turned on the hot water just a crack, since City water pressure was still on, this moved hot water around the apt, which I ended at the bath tub, with the plug in the tub, so it slowly filled up until it got to the overflow. Was not perfect but kept the apt warm enough. It would have worked better if I only ran the hose in one room rather than the whole apt, but I didn't think of that back then. I bet if everyone in that apt had thought of the same idea, it wouldn't have worked, since there were about 100 units in that building. The Natural Gas and the city water pressure were both on, so it worked for us.
Maybe something like this would work for short term in some places.

Other ideas, I have a cheap Chinese diesel heater in my workshop, it is the back up to the back up heating. It runs on 40Watts of 12vDC and uses either diesel/home heating oil or kerosine. The outlet is 3/4" diameter stainless steel tube. I ran it tonight to do a test, just to see how hot that exhaust line gets on the highest burn setting, and it capped out at 102-degrees C (215 F) so cool enough that it would not set wood on fire if it touches it. I paid $150 CAD for my 8kW unit not a lot of money, they also sell 2kW and 4kW sizes. If you have an apt or condo, with an operable window, you could open the window a bit, and block above and below the exhaust pipe with a strip of metal or wood (keep it back a bit from the tube) etc Macgiver up something so you can poke that exhaust out, a bit of a gap to let in some combustion air, and if needs be pull the starting battery from the car to run the 12v heater.
Other ideas,
With some planning ahead, I have seen a few cabin heaters that are built for marine situations, some are mult-fuel (small blocks of wood, charcoal, coal) some are wood pellet operated or Diesel fuel (since boats usually have diesel engines) These can be very small, but well made units. Check out the Dickinson Heater for multi-solid fuel, or for pellets the Drifters' Camp Stove - I have never used either, just saw them online. The Drifter's unit claims to make its own electricity using piezoelectric - enough to charge a cell phone and run a tiny blower fan to move the heat around a bit. I have thought about one for winter camping use. These types of stove need about a 3" chimney so you may need to plan ahead for a way to install one in place of a dryer vent or if you have a sliding window, make up a strip that can fit into a gap with the window open a few inches, and fit the small chimney through the strip with some metal stand-offs.

Other options: look up hot tent camping supplies, there are a number of products designed to heat a tent, and since these are enclosed spaces, these products consider air supply for combustion - most bring in fresh air around the hot chimney pipe where it exits the tent. Geostoves use no power, just oil and a chimney.
Actually a tent is not a bad idea too, set up a tent in a central room away from exterior walls, fill it with your warmest blankets, lay blankets over the tent even, now put the family inside the tent and you will be surprised how warm it gets in there. Fire up some iphones and laptops and plug into your Bluetti and your set for the night.

I worked 7 years in the Canadian Arctic, often living in tents, all winter, seen minus 65C and 160km/hr (100mph) Winds, I know a bit about keeping warm.
 
Actually a tent is not a bad idea too, set up a tent in a central room away from exterior walls, fill it with your warmest blankets, lay blankets over the tent even, now put the family inside the tent and you will be surprised how warm it gets in there. Fire up some iphones and laptops and plug into your Bluetti and your set for the night.
This is a tried and true method of reducing the area required to be heated. Works well. And the kids love "camping".

Du Bois area: The surface area of skin of an "average" adult is 1.8 m2 (1.8 x 10.76 = 19.368 ft2) The total heat production of an "average" person at rest per hour is 58.2 x 1.8 = 104.76 = 105 watts (18.4 x 19.368 = 356.37 = 356 Btu's per hour).
 
An igloo is heated only by the people inside, and the size of an igloo is set by the number of people, to enable it to be comfortable temp.
Inuit people are well adapted to their environment. An old trapper told me (via a translator) that an igloo is to survived a blizzard, not to "live in". So I asked, so before houses, where did you live? his reply: " you live in your parka"
 
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