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Intro, EMPs, and Obstructionism

1F409

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I have been interested in PV systems for some years, but electricity just isn't my forte. So, I've been looking for a basic DIY solar panel setup that any old monkey can put together, but one that's also dirt cheap. I came across Mr. Prowse's videos prior to the "weather balloon" incident and subsequent EMP scare. After realizing the trouble that EMPs pose for even off-grid systems, I looked into hardening options, and found the EMP Doctor's videos. In neither case do I find myself in a position to understand the technology, only the general overviews.

So, I signed up here to search the forums for information and ask for advice. Unfortunately, though I've found a lot of topics started on the subject of EMPs affecting solar panel systems, it seems the conversation often devolves into nonsense. A clever joke here and there's fine, but what I've observed in a handful of threads that popped up seems to border on downright obstructionism. (A generous interpretation would be hazing, a more suspicious mind might conclude that there are people here hoping to see newbies die in an apocalypse.)

Another question that keeps nagging at me is why I've not seen Mr. Prowse address EMP hardening. Admittedly, I'm not up on all his videos, but one would think that such a concern, especially as of late, would at least pop up in a title or two. Is it a lack of comprehension on my part -- perhaps all modern PV systems are already protected?

For my household, I do hope to purchase a PV system soon. I really like that hand cart setup Prowse made, if for no other reason than it looks just simple enough for me not to instantly fry myself. As for the solar panels themselves, I'm considering a pallet or two of used ones, but it seems wiser to tailor cheap panels to the system, rather than vice versa. My minimum goal is to have enough power to run, off-grid in cloudy northern latitudes, some suburban essentials like a sump pump, furnace fan, and freezer.
 
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I don't worry much about EMP for a couple of reasons. The main reason though is that I think we will have much bigger problems should an EMP event happen. Technically, the rise time of induced EMP currents is very very fast, making common, readily available, semiconductor devices ineffective in offering protection. Even if a protective device was available for the commercial market, it wouldn't be a simple "wire it in and all is good" situation. A poor installation would negate the function of the device. There are bery high currents that must be shunted, and the design of these types of grounding systems is beyond most DIY folk's capability and budget.

A faraday cage might offer the best protection but there too, the devil is in the details. It is very easy to build a small cage but one big enough to enclose a solar energy system just isn't a viable solution (your house would probably need to be in it as well). After that, the seals (electrical) around any door to the cage are tricky and any wire entrance has to be designed correctly.

Another issue is with the traces within the PV panels. They are very thin and are not designed to conduct hundreds if not thousands of amperes, the magnitude of current to be expected from an EMP event. Any "protective" device installed external to the panel isn't going to help with this situation.

My advice is to enjoy solar energy while you can and benefit from it now. Also, be cautious with commecially available "EMP hardening/protective" devices. I don't know of many outside government who can even come close to definitively test the effectiveness of what is being sold!
 
Thanks, all, for the response to my questions.

I used to scoff at nukes, because nobody would be that insane. Today, not so much!

In my video browsing, I happened upon an owner's 2016 review of a SolArk system that's supposedly EMP hardened -- the box containing the stuff critical to weathering the attack, along with some ferrites to attach to cables. The reviewer said that company claimed to have a nuclear engineer on staff. (But, I've also seen posts about how there's a lot of snake oil being sold in the PV market, too. Really no good way for an amateur like me to know the difference, other than read reviews, watch body language, check company histories, etc.)

As the review was seven years ago, I figure that hardening is likely by now properly understood, well-tested, and ubiquitous -- and hopefully not much more expensive (other than the sudden demand on account of political turmoil).

Unless I can find a simple, all-in-one, EMP-resistant setup -- say, a hardened box paired with semi-hardened panels, all told within four figures -- then indeed I might have to resort to a cheap risk-and-replacement model. Would a hardened box be feasible without hardened panels? (It seems that used panels are cheap enough to keep backups.)

Of particular note, though, is Q-Dog's reply. Though I'm sure someone will suggest I'm being overly sensitive, or that his message was well-intentioned, I would call your eye to the manipulative wording: He hasn't "heard of any 'subsequent EMP scare'", and then immediately mentions "conspiracy theorists". (The insinuation being that no news of worth escapes his notice, therefore anything outside that must be mere crazy talk.) Instantly, he's made himself sound reasonable and me the nutter, even though the concerns I raised are echoed by a number of well-credentialed media figures with global reach. (The point of insinuation is that doesn't have to be spelled out -- that's how verbal manipulation works. And I'm seeing it in many of the threads covering EMP. Why might that be? [A rhetorical question.])

Anyway, I'm happy to continue the conversation with the other posters. Thanks again.
 
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Hardening has been well understood since the 50's. Some of the techniques/equipment hasn't been in the public domain and still isn't in the public domain. Some effective protective devices are controlled because of another dual use.

It doesn't have to be generated by a high altitude detonation. The sun can generate it through a coronal mass ejection.
 
Best way I can come up with is a shipping container where you store spare panels and solar equipment, etc. I’d also have a propane generator in there. Replace anything damaged from an EMP with that.
 
Madco, I am aware of EMP vs. CME, and roughly understand there are three different stages to worry about. When you say that certain tech isn't in the public domain, though, do you mean that it's merely proprietary, or that it's being kept secret by government edict? I would've thought that such safety info would have at least trickled down through Cold War vets, by now. (Otherwise, how are some cities supposedly now upgrading their infrastructure to withstand or recover from EMPs?)


Danke, a shipping container isn't really an option for my yard. However, keeping the fiddly electronics in an EM-sealed trash can might be. As for panels themselves, I've heard they don't take nearly the hit that the other parts do, that they're generally not in danger unless connected, and they would usually require just a few swaps of tiny fuse-like components to get working again. Depending on how much of a markup there is on EMP-proof or EMP-recoverable panels, I might get those -- provided they're not merely hype.


Just to reiterate a prior point, though: I can't drop five grand on a box, only to have it burn out in the next year or so. A pallet of replacement panels for not even a grand is do-able, though.
 
“well-credentialed media figures with global reach” make their money by having things to say where hopefully a lot of people will listen. Does that make them inherently legitimate? Don’t get me wrong; I am very concerned about a CME putting the hammer on a big chunk of humanity.

Were you around in the 90’s when the Y2K scare was a thing? Do you think that experience may have affected some perspectives?

Have you seen how different people respond to potential calamity? How some people do a big scoff as a defense mechanism?

Do you think that possibly the manner in which you presented this issue, including your observation how “it seems the conversation often devolves into nonsense. A clever joke here and there's fine, but what I've observed in a handful of threads that popped up seems to border on downright obstructionism. (A generous interpretation would be hazing, a more suspicious mind might conclude that there are people here hoping to see newbies die in an apocalypse.)” might think you’re looking for a scuffle?

One nice aspect about diysolarforum is a lot of folks here cut each other slack, often letting others be themselves without getting sniffy. If a person might act dismissive regarding conjecture of a potentially world-crumbling (for humans) electro-magnetic destruction of civilization, well, behavior that you label ‘obstructionism’ may just be how they cope.

One opinion.
 
See my previous post on EMP protection.
 
Its a bit like when buying a bullet proof vest, asking if it will stop a 155mm artillery round.

Basically EMP can be incredibly powerful, and the idea that a bit of tinfoil and a few capacitors, or anything you can do yourself is going to make the slightest difference is just wishful thinking.
 
Were you around in the 90’s when the Y2K scare was a thing?
Lots of consultants and service providers made big $ on that. There were a relatively small number of technical issues out there that did need fixed, but the utility company I worked for at the time spent millions on consultants evaluating systems they knew absolutely nothing about generating massive reports that were filled with jibberish. That type of thing happens in all areas of perceived and/or real risk that is difficult for most decision makers to understand.
IMHO, In a significant wide spread EMP event most of us will either starve to death ( or something along those lines) or be killed fighting for what we need to live. If it’s a small regional event, replacement equipment will be available and if you try to harden your system without any detailed knowledge of the issue it probably won’t work anyway.
 
I believe it's wise to have some vehicles on hand that are fueled with carbs and sparked with point ignition, if living through an apocalypse is your jam.
Mechanical timepieces may be handy, if knowing the time of day in an apocalypse is your jam.
That's probably the only guaranteed advantage over others, assuming fuel is in supply.
 
If someone detonates a nuclear weapon close enough for the EMP to be an issue, you will have a lot more things to worry about than whether or not your electronics work.

Any attack by a country that has more than one nuke will almost certainly trigger a full retaliatory response. In that situation EMP will be the least of our worries.

No terrorist is going to go through the trouble of aquiring a nuclear weapon just to attempt the nearly impossible task of getting it to the center of the country and lauching it on a missle to detonate it in the atmosphere. After watching the US reaction to 9/11, terrorists would most certainly just target a city and be done with it.

Spend your time chasing EMP if you want. When your flesh is burning you won't really care if you electronic devices don't work.
 
Spend your time chasing EMP if you want. When your flesh is burning you won't really care if you electronic devices don't work.
Agree with you - even if the cause of the EMP is natural causes, such as the sun. For the most part large utilities make no effort to harden generation assets against EMP other than a select few that would be of no value to the bulk of the population and probably will fail anyway. There are lots of things that could occur and would simply end it all for the vast majority of us and it’s out of our control. However, I have a lot of fun with my system which is a good portion of the reason I’m doing Solar - some folks will have fun studying EMP and setting up forms of protection - I’m all for that, that’s the kind of people that occasionally develop a significant technical innovation- maybe or maybe not related to their original goal, we need that stuff going on.
 
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Kitrobaskin, I meant "well-credentialed" not as in a puffed-up media resume, but actual experience in security. (The point being that if *they're* getting worried, maybe it's not all just hyperbole.) As for your other points: not to be rude, but I couldn't care less about people's hangups -- I'm here to get straight answers, not derailment attempts.


Coming back to to the original topic, it seems like there's a divide between EMP being utterly devastating versus just an irritating hiccup. Are the opinions disparate because it depends on one's distance from the event? I don't expect anything to do very well within miles of a blast, but the falloff from a great distance, even if dissipating over the surface of a sphere instead of through volume, should quickly reduce the intensity, no?

Other than the caveat of proximity, I have a hard time comprehending how a nuke -- normally a mere mosquito bite to the Earth as a whole -- can cause such widespread failure simply because it what, propagates through the ionosphere? Isn't the planet being doused with nukes' worth of solar radiation and cosmic particles every day, anyway?

As for the argument that we might as well kiss out hineys goodbye, I am aware that some countries consider even an EMP to be grounds for an all-out nuclear war. Still, prepping for a nuclear catastrophe also includes proper location, maybe even building a fallout shelter, so I don't see why trying to maintain quality of life via PV would be dismissed like it's not manly enough for a die-hard prepper.
 
The only practical approach to PV/EMP (for me) is some spares in a safe storage area, multi-wrapped and bundled as best I can for their protection.
I don't dwell on it.
 
I have 4 small inverters and MPPTs wrapped in foil inside a sealed metal box and recycled amorphous solar panels as backup. Besides that, I have lots of components that I've outgrown as I've upgraded. But for an EMP even, my focus is on food, water, hygiene, first aid and defense. I live on the gulf coast and been through many hurricanes and power outages. Things can get crazy when people run out of fuel for their generators. If there is an EMP/CME you should isolate yourself from the fray and wait it out in the short term.

Worst thing to do is let anyone know you have power and resources. Douse that light!
 
This might sound merely cosmetic, but if I'm going to live with a PV system, I worry about the noise of the box. I can practically hear a pin drop from across the house, so I even buy fanless PCs. For that reason, as well as possible fire risk, I've considered placing the box in a shed rather than in the basement. What features or size of system would necessitate a fan? Do cheaper systems tend to be nosier? Are there other noises?
 
Best way I can come up with is a shipping container where you store spare panels and solar equipment, etc. I’d also have a propane generator in there. Replace anything damaged from an EMP with that.
This.

EMP harden solar = put extra unused stuff inside a compleatly enclosed grounded metal box. Remove contents after event.
 
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