Is it possible? Yes! how?

[Shahid]

Ok am in an area with plenty of sun (330 days a year) and i want a solar system in fallowing way ...can any body tell me is that possible? If yes how..

1: I want a solar tube well (Ac 15Hp motor minimum) with a three phase vfd to be used in day time to water my agriculture land (40 panels of 250watts).

2: i have my home right next to this facility and i want to use the same (above solar array i used for tube well) to power my home when not in use for tube well or simultaneously ( panels can be increased)

Is that possible?
If yes
What kind of system i have to use for my home...
Where i have power supply but i want to use it just for backup..
Can i grid tie the whole system ?
What kind of system you guys will recommend for above scenerio...
Any kind of info will be appreciated..

 

[nosys70]

"my home right next to this facility", you have to specify the magnitude of the distance.
hundreds of meters is usually impossible with low voltage, but you can easily run a 120V line over a mile
after all is possible, a grid tie is not a backup since most grid tie systems are shutting down when there is no grid.
the best would be to get an all in one converter, and use the AC input (ususally connected to the grid) connected instead to
your private AC line. this way you can switch form AC grid to private AC if needed. You will also add a battery in house to cope with the potential surge the house could generate, and if Grid cuts, it give you a small time to switch, without loosing power. You can even add a small panel to the house, so you can still charge battery locally if there is a problem with either the grid or your main system.

 

[Shahid]

"my home right next to this facility", you have to specify the magnitude of the distance.
hundreds of meters is usually impossible with low voltage, but you can easily run a 120V line over a mile
after all is possible, a grid tie is not a backup since most grid tie systems are shutting down when there is no grid.
the best would be to get an all in one converter, and use the AC input (ususally connected to the grid) connected instead to
your private AC line. this way you can switch form AC grid to private AC if needed. You will also add a battery in house to cope with the potential surge the house could generate, and if Grid cuts, it give you a small time to switch, without loosing power. You can even add a small panel to the house, so you can still charge battery locally if there is a problem with either the grid or your main system.

Not miles its just 50 meters0 away from the proposed site where panels for tube well will be installed...what i got from your message is

A: i should install an AC all in one system in my home ( which usually gets energy from grid) but in my case it will get Ac from my private grid...

Here my question is .i will be converting dc power from grid to AC for tube well with a VFD. But how will i be converting same DC to AC for home.. i am attaching a picture of it..can you tell me where are you purposing the conversion should happen.




B: I dont want to feed back to grid.and i dont want a back up when national grid is down. Do i still need some battries just for the surge thing .. although i liked the logic you gave ...

 

[kernel]

The water requirement per day and hours and time of day of operation should be used to know what the prime power requirement is. Is there a deficit? Excess for powering the home?

If you want to operate the well with a grid connection at the lowest possible cost or possibly no cost, it can be done and has long term cost stabilization and general avoidance for operating your farm.

Some inverters will power loads up to the point of needing grid assist or use the grid as a backstop for powering active loads amd no more. No grid insertion.

You will need at least a battery at the minimum size in amp hours for inverter manufactures spec. 200ah at 48v being enough for about 4000w inverter ssurge loads and support for dc powered functionallity, logic, relays, sensors, data log and display etc.

Big inverters if needed can be programmed to not exceed the reasonable battery capacity for most use. Big pumps for long hours or any hours isikely going to hit nuisance lvd unless co-ordinated to avoid the condition, but could possibly be done.

A divertable array from direct drive well operation and another array to support operation with minimal grid supplied energy use may or may not be needed or employed.

An inverter like this can have its grid source charger turned off or turned down to suit small batteries, as can pv power via charge control.

If you have fairly constant loads and use patterns clustered around daylight, ac coupling can work. Micro ac grid.

Its mainly the software of a grid interactive or hybrid off grid type that gives features like grid zero or its equivalent term and ac coupling suitable for load support and battery charging.

 

[nosys70]

you just add an inverter at the first location to turn DC to AC and send it to the system in your house.
the inverter will take power that is available when you request it from the house. if there is no power ot not enough, battery will take over (for a short time).
you can have a manual or remote switch to activate the AC converter, while disconnecting from the grid with another switch at house.
you can also leave the converter running to produce AC anyway, if you do not put a load on it, it should not ask for a lot of power while on stand by. But if rarely using it , better to shut it off. If you have grid working, it will load batteries so they will be alway full and ready

 

[Shahid]

The water requirement per day and hours and time of day of operation should be used to know what the prime power requirement is. Is there a deficit? Excess for powering the home?

If you want to operate the well with a grid connection at the lowest possible cost or possibly no cost, it can be done and has long term cost stabilization and general avoidance for operating your farm.

Some inverters will power loads up to the point of needing grid assist or use the grid as a backstop for powering active loads amd no more. No grid insertion.

You will need at least a battery at the minimum size in amp hours for inverter manufactures spec. 200ah at 48v being enough for about 4000w inverter ssurge loads and support for dc powered functionallity, logic, relays, sensors, data log and display etc.

Big inverters if needed can be programmed to not exceed the reasonable battery capacity for most use. Big pumps for long hours or any hours isikely going to hit nuisance lvd unless co-ordinated to avoid the condition, but could possibly be done.

A divertable array from direct drive well operation and another array to support operation with minimal grid supplied energy use may or may not be needed or employed.

An inverter like this can have its grid source charger turned off or turned down to suit small batteries, as can pv power via charge control.

If you have fairly constant loads and use patterns clustered around daylight, ac coupling can work. Micro ac grid.

Its mainly the software of a grid interactive or hybrid off grid type that gives features like grid zero or its equivalent term and ac coupling suitable for load support and battery charging.

Ok although i need some time to digest all you said and a bit of google search for the terms used. Thank you for the reply..
While searching i stumbeled across https://mppsolar.com

I got few ideas from there...
In my area summers are quite harsh (even reach 50c) ...that means i got abundant sun hours.
From mppsolar.com i got an idea that i can use national grid 3 phase supply to run my tube well at night if required and solar system in day....

We can design an excessive sytem with more panels as we can are in design phase...

There sp model range is 3 phase inverter for tube well so we can use it for solar in day...am i right? I messaged their support team ( i will post there reply when i got it)

That system as a read cant run Simultaneously at grid and solar....so this is ok in my case i think....

We can shift it on national grid in night....

Second when tube well is powered off we can use another model of mppsolar 5048mg to run my home ...they can be used in parrallel and without battery too...

Other terms like lvd you used i will search for that...i dont know about ac coupling i will search it too...or you can point me in good direction about any good read you think i should read


Thank you

 

[Shahid]

you just add an inverter at the first location to turn DC to AC and send it to the system in your house.
you can have a manual or remote switch to activate the AC converter, while disconnecting from the grid with another switch at house.
you can also leave the converter running to produce AC anyway, if you do not put a load on it, it should not ask for a lot of power while on stand by. But if rarely using it , better to shut it off.

Thats so simple ...you summed it well ....what i will need is a switch from which i can turn on the national grid and off ....and to keep inverter runing at position one i will need a battery if i want it power on in night to ....am i right... Or it will be on through grid power when grid power is on from the manual switch?

 

[nosys70]

if you switch grid off, then the only way to receive power will be from the batteries (but unless you get huge battery, it won't be for long) or from the private AC line that is converting power from the panel, but only on daytime.
and if you get a few panel at the house, you can still get backup if there is a problem with the AC input.

 

[Shahid]

if you switch grid off, then the only way to receive power will be from the batteries (but unless you get huge battery, it won't be for long) or from the private AC line that is converting power from the panel, but only on daytime.
and if you get a few panel at the house, you can still get backup if there is a problem with the AC input.

Ok what i got is you are saying i can make a small on roof system along side this main system to keel system runing ....although i dont exactly know how it will be done withen this system your suggestion is valid

 

[nosys70]

on Will site he is advising these easy to mount all-in-one MPPT systems. all vendors are offering the same kind of product.
there is AC input, battery input, solar PV input and AC output.
you just feed all inputs and this is done, the system will manage to get AC output on what is available on input). It will also manage to charge battery if needed.
the trick here is you will switch the AC input from Grid to Private (and back) if needed. (in case Grid is out).
You do not need the solar panel on this side if you can provide both type of AC, but just for redundancy, you could add a few.

 

[Shahid]

on Will site he is advising these easy to mount all-in-one MPPT systems. all vendors are offering the same kind of product.
there is AC input, battery input, solar PV input and AC output.
you just feed all inputs and this is done, the system will manage to get AC output on what is available on input). It will also manage to charge battery if needed.
the trick here is you will switch the AC input from Grid to Private (and back) if needed. (in case Grid is out).
You do not need the solar panel on this side if you can provide both type of AC, but just for redundancy, you could add a few.

Yes i have seen one of his video where he is saying these are all in one systems .... So as you have understood the concept can you point me to any video or any source which you think can help me in any aspect of building this system...it will be appreciated

 

[nosys70]

you first need to size the numbers to make sure where you go. some manufacturer offers more or less features.
for example the capacity of the batteries needed is essential.
the price also vary a lot from chinese models to big brand names.
If you do not want to rewire all the house, you will probably also need several devices if you house is using more than one phase.
there are several way to get power also. buying a big device, or buying several ones and linking them
It is all about your own choice so it is hard to advise.

 

[Shahid]

you first need to size the numbers to make sure where you go. some manufacturer offers offers more or less features.
for example the capacity of the batteries needed is essential.
the price also vary a lot from chinese models to big brand names.
If you do not want to rewire all the house, you will probably also need several devices if you house is using more than one phase.
there are several way to get power also. buying a big device, or buying several ones and linking them
It is all about your own choice so it is hard to advise.

Ok i will keep on adding here whatever i finalize after eveey step

 

[Steve_S]

Shahid, you said this is a FARM correct ? If that is the case, you can't go without water for long and from the description of your climate zone, it isn't an option at all. I know what +50C feels like, as well as -50C , many don't, either is extreme.

Quick recap.

• You want to run primarily off solar for your water pumping and your home use.
• You have access to Grid Power but only wish to use it as a failsafe backup to charge batteries IF needed but not to feed the grid.
• I will assume you are using 220/230 VAC @ 50Hz (NOT 240VAC Split Phase @ 60Hz (North American form))
• You have solar @ your well. The Well is located 50 metres (164' for the metric challenged) from the home.
• You are willing to increase the solar on current site or on your home as well.

A few practicality issues & points to consider.
- Running DC lines for 50 metres + is very costly in copper so generally impractical to do, also presents other challenges.
- Running AC is considerably cheaper & easier to accomplish,
- All in One systems are appealing BUT they have certain quirks and potentials for unpleasantness. Consider if the SCC (Solar Charge Controller) of the unit fails, the whole unit must be taken down for repair (if repairable) meanwhile you are not generating & using. Same if the Inverter or Charger components fail. Components can and do fail, usually at the worst possible time as well.
- "Stackable" components like Solar Charge Controllers, Inverter/Chargers are readily available and can offer a certain degree of fault tolerance when assembled properly. For example one SCC could fail but the rest take up the slack & keep running, while bypassing the failed one.
- Inverters are available which can use the Grid as backup and can be programmed for various thresholds. Some use internal ATS (Auto Transfer Switching) while others use an external ATS. Many also have a similar AGS (automatic Genset Start) feature to startup a backup generator system, most often requiring an external unit for that control. (Propane fuelled gensets are better in most cases because the fuel will not sour if stored for periods of time, they do have quirks in cold but that's not on of your problems).
- Intermixing of different "gear" can be problematic when it comes to managing & monitoring the system for performance & fault control. It is generally quite prudent to stick with one common family of products.

Some options to consider.
- Are you willing to build a "powerhouse" where your solar system is located ?
This can house the solar equipment including the batteries all in one spot, from which you can run AC to your home using appropriate wiring BUT it places your gridline access further away, adding some cost to run a line to that building. This also resolves the distance run as AC is easier than DC.

- Would you consider a "dual" system, one for the house, one for the well system ?
Both could theoretically run independently yet be capable of backing the other up so if one system fails you can run AC in reverse <-> between power house & home. Of course the GridLine would go to home first then feed to powerhouse (easier) and serve both as needed. It is possible the Powerhouse may need grid charging occasionally and the home one may never need it, or vice versa. This "assumes" both would have charging capability as mentioned above.

- Depending on how "critical" you determine your system(s) to be, are you willing to go with 1st Tier product or would you be happy with 2nd tier or "Value" stuff ? Value stuff being the cheapest imports and not the most reliable or configurable & usually without any form of management / monitoring capability. 1st Tier is Victron, Outback and so on. ( NB, I don't use Victron, as it wasn't available here when I started, but that is seriously NICE gear and you do get what you pay for, even at the premium that it is) If I was building my system today, it would be Victron.

- SUPPORT ! noone mentions that, oddly enough.
If you import a value piece and need support, good luck. Do you have local vendors who will support your purchases (if you DIY) or are you going to buy everything off the web and diy it all yourself & hope for the best ? This is important, especially for a critical situation. Q: How long before the livestock is affected without water, what about crops ? THAT is the maximum time you can be down ! If the SCC or Inverter fails, you do NOT want o be waiting on replacement / repaired parts, you'll want to run to a shop & get it fixed / replaced ASAP. Please consider that.

I hope that helps you consider more aspects and issues before you get too deep into your project. Everything you want to do is most certainly possible but a good solid baseline plan is important and knowing what can go wrong is essential to plan for ways to reduce any risks from failures or … Please consider the various issues & aspects.

A small point to ponder upon. A fellow not far from here who runs a horse ranch, DIY'ed a solar system using "very" value equipment (no safety certified gear, no CSA/UL/ETL, nothing, off grid, so not inspected) and it ran fine for 6 months. 3 days before Christmas the main horse barn burnt due to a failure in the equipment, 23 horses (show horses to boot) were lost and only 2 firefighters injured. NO INSURANCE ! The fool had everything in the main barn, several of us told him not to for just that reason and knowing he was bodging it up but he knew better than everyone else.... Now he is on the hook for all of it and is broke and will loose the ranch as a result of his "brilliance". This is not something I want to see happen to anyone, ever.

 

[Shahid]

Shahid, you said this is a FARM correct ? If that is the case, you can't go without water for long and from the description of your climate zone, it isn't an option at all. I know what +50C feels like, as well as -50C , many don't, either is extreme.

Quick recap.

• You want to run primarily off solar for your water pumping and your home use.
• You have access to Grid Power but only wish to use it as a failsafe backup to charge batteries IF needed but not to feed the grid.
• I will assume you are using 220/230 VAC @ 50Hz (NOT 240VAC Split Phase @ 60Hz (North American form))
• You have solar @ your well. The Well is located 50 metres (164' for the metric challenged) from the home.
• You are willing to increase the solar on current site or on your home as well.

A few practicality issues & points to consider.
- Running DC lines for 50 metres + is very costly in copper so generally impractical to do, also presents other challenges.
- Running AC is considerably cheaper & easier to accomplish,
- All in One systems are appealing BUT they have certain quirks and potentials for unpleasantness. Consider if the SCC (Solar Charge Controller) of the unit fails, the whole unit must be taken down for repair (if repairable) meanwhile you are not generating & using. Same if the Inverter or Charger components fail. Components can and do fail, usually at the worst possible time as well.
- "Stackable" components like Solar Charge Controllers, Inverter/Chargers are readily available and can offer a certain degree of fault tolerance when assembled properly. For example one SCC could fail but the rest take up the slack & keep running, while bypassing the failed one.
- Inverters are available which can use the Grid as backup and can be programmed for various thresholds. Some use internal ATS (Auto Transfer Switching) while others use an external ATS. Many also have a similar AGS (automatic Genset Start) feature to startup a backup generator system, most often requiring an external unit for that control. (Propane fuelled gensets are better in most cases because the fuel will not sour if stored for periods of time, they do have quirks in cold but that's not on of your problems).
- Intermixing of different "gear" can be problematic when it comes to managing & monitoring the system for performance & fault control. It is generally quite prudent to stick with one common family of products.

Some options to consider.
- Are you willing to build a "powerhouse" where your solar system is located ?
This can house the solar equipment including the batteries all in one spot, from which you can run AC to your home using appropriate wiring BUT it places your gridline access further away, adding some cost to run a line to that building. This also resolves the distance run as AC is easier than DC.

- Would you consider a "dual" system, one for the house, one for the well system ?
Both could theoretically run independently yet be capable of backing the other up so if one system fails you can run AC in reverse <-> between power house & home. Of course the GridLine would go to home first then feed to powerhouse (easier) and serve both as needed. It is possible the Powerhouse may need grid charging occasionally and the home one may never need it, or vice versa. This "assumes" both would have charging capability as mentioned above.

- Depending on how "critical" you determine your system(s) to be, are you willing to go with 1st Tier product or would you be happy with 2nd tier or "Value" stuff ? Value stuff being the cheapest imports and not the most reliable or configurable & usually without any form of management / monitoring capability. 1st Tier is Victron, Outback and so on. ( NB, I don't use Victron, as it wasn't available here when I started, but that is seriously NICE gear and you do get what you pay for, even at the premium that it is) If I was building my system today, it would be Victron.

- SUPPORT ! noone mentions that, oddly enough.
If you import a value piece and need support, good luck. Do you have local vendors who will support your purchases (if you DIY) or are you going to buy everything off the web and diy it all yourself & hope for the best ? This is important, especially for a critical situation. Q: How long before the livestock is affected without water, what about crops ? THAT is the maximum time you can be down ! If the SCC or Inverter fails, you do NOT want o be waiting on replacement / repaired parts, you'll want to run to a shop & get it fixed / replaced ASAP. Please consider that.

I hope that helps you consider more aspects and issues before you get too deep into your project. Everything you want to do is most certainly possible but a good solid baseline plan is important and knowing what can go wrong is essential to plan for ways to reduce any risks from failures or … Please consider the various issues & aspects.

A small point to ponder upon. A fellow not far from here who runs a horse ranch, DIY'ed a solar system using "very" value equipment (no safety certified gear, no CSA/UL/ETL, nothing, off grid, so not inspected) and it ran fine for 6 months. 3 days before Christmas the main horse barn burnt due to a failure in the equipment, 23 horses (show horses to boot) were lost and only 2 firefighters injured. NO INSURANCE ! The fool had everything in the main barn, several of us told him not to for just that reason and knowing he was bodging it up but he knew better than everyone else.... Now he is on the hook for all of it and is broke and will loose the ranch as a result of his "brilliance". This is not something I want to see happen to anyone, ever.

Bro first of all am so humbeled and thankful that you spent a lot of time and knowledge to write this up...
Now to the technical part , bro all you assumed is right...
I run on 220v 50H..
I have a tubewell on grid which is costing alot $600-800 in summers ..
Yes i will convert everything on solarfarm and use it for tube well right there...
And then with a seprate setup will send the AC to home...
The point you raised is valid i will built a seprate well for this setup and that on grid will be 24/7 available as i cant loose my crops and animals in a system failure case......


Generator is not an option in our case as its just so costly that its not ecnomically fesible...but still i will have a deasel engine in case both my system went rouge .....so thats my 3rd line of defence... And i have a 4th too (thats great )

Yes you are right alot of my effort is at choosing what system parts to select ...

I will be dead honest with you at this...in my country (Pakistan) we only have very cheaply made inverters (same chinese inverter rebranded in dozen of names) thats why i wana buy it from web and DIY the system...

Ok whatever company a good one for the rest of the world i choose wont give me local support here and local companies that give support are just plain patahtic in built quality..still i wana go on no local support but good equipment with no local support route ...

Thats the reason am asking and learning everything the hard way....those compnies only design and make you systems if you use their cheap stuff...thats a no go....

I will took as much time as required to make this system as safe as possible...

Yes i said i will DIY this but i will take expert on board whenever and wheever required ...

Issue is what i am planning to do us required in our market but didnt happning...so you can say am a bit ahead of time...

I dont care about ul or other ratings but believe me i do care about the safty aspect as much as i can and i will hire the best to check the system while building and at completion as well..

As now you know the situation can you highlight any other issues or aspect i am missing

Can anybody recomend the equipment the think will suite my case ....

If any bodyy thinks thats the system i should use ...let me know and i will research over it myself as well...amd once again thank you for your time and insight

Issue is there are so many options picking the right one ecnomically and safty wise is a big challenge...

 

[Steve_S]

Unfortunately, I cannot assist you with whatever kind of products are available to you in Pakistan. I don't know who sells what. That being said, there are some very good products coming out of China as well as some serious crap ! But then again, that stands true with any nations that has manufacturing, regardless of where they are.

UL/CSA/ETL are not guarantees of quality but rather a verification that the equipment meets minimum requirements to pass the certification. While this is not a "It's Great & Wonderful" endorsement, it is a bit of assurance that the devices comply with minimum safety requirements. Some would argue that.

I have used some "Value" equipment by Yiyen out of China REF: https://www.yiyen.com/ it was "okay" for the price and worked well. But it was the low hanging fruit. Now I bought that stuff 5 years ago and they have grown & improved, so the current state of their products is ? I personally have not used Sigineer but know people who are using their products and there are even a few here and I haven't heard complaints about their products. REF: https://www.sigineer.com/
NOTE: They are both OEM's (Original Equipment Manufacturers) that sell to VAR's (Value Added Resellers, AIMS is one example) ) who repack them under different labels. Be aware that older models are less capable and often only support Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) or AGM and also have limited configurability. Newer models are more advanced and have features & function necessary for a good system. LOOK FOR Lithium / Lifepo support by the various models, preferably something with a programmable interface.

As for specific recommendations in regards to sizing & inter-operability, that's a problem. Before you can get any form of valid suggestions, the usage / wattage needs to be determined. How much power is being used per day to run the pumps and everything else. If you want a dual system (1 house, 1 pumping) then those numbers are needed for both. Then you have to decide on how much time you want batteries to run without sun/gen/grid power being available. ALWAYS account for worst case scenario. We all know "shit happens" to plan for it. First Rule of Crisis Management is Prevention !

Do not rush into anything ! Take you time, do your research, consider options, ASK Questions ! Remember that when asking questions, you MAY get an answer you do not like, so do not be upset if it happens. IF an item / product / solution seems like it's too good to be true, 99.6% chance it is. If you think you can do it on a budget of say 10,000 put aside an extra 25% for buffer ! No I am NOT kidding, better to over budget and come under, than under budget and left standing there looking like a fool. You'd be surprised how often that happen but no one ever admits it openly.

Believe it or not, it takes on average about 3-5 months for the average person with no knowledge of electricity (DC in particular) and solar systems and related equipment to come up to speed with good studying and reading of reference info an following various discussions. YouTube video's can be quite handy BUT there are also some serious shysters' out there who are pushing crud and/or dangerous practices. ! WILL IS NOT ONE OF THOSE ! to take it all with a grain or two of salt ! In fact, take everything as an opinion and with a healthy dose of salt as well. YOU will have to use your own critical thinking to determine what is best for you, what will work or won't and if you're employing common sense & safety precautions.

Case in point, when you see a diagram / schema and no fuses, breakers or ground points indicated beware ! Sometimes it's just shown as a basic example but if someone says "do it like so" run !

Good Luck and have fun.
Let us know when you have figured out your daily power consumption, device ratings (pump voltage, amperage etc) and with enough info we can start making better suggestions. The more accurate the info the better.