diy solar

diy solar

Who has experience with (blue) aluminum cells in a mobile system?

And now a question, I have read that LiFePO4 batteries should not be stored fully charge, as you can see my Victron charger has a "Storage" mode which it goes to after after being on "Float" for a while, but we only use that as a backup, usually the solar is switched on all the time when the van is not in use, anybody know what happens with the Victron reg on li ion settings, does it do the same?
 
Will the cells not need more support than that? Alu cased and plastic cased prismatic cells need to be installed with compression to stop them bulging over time is my understanding.
 
Well if they are bulging they are damaged is my understanding.
Mine are stuck together with 3 strips of 2 mm. double side foam tape, allowing a small air gap for heat release.
Then I ran two lines of 2" tape around them to complete the pack. any expansion would end up tearing the bus bars out as well.
I see no evidence of expansion in any of the 25 or so li ion batteries of various types I have, including phones and tablets.
The real issue I see is that none of these damn BMS's are programmable, so management becomes more critical.
The specs on my batteries are out side the specs for the BMS (higher charge, and lower discharge), so at least I have that.
 
BTW, don't forget, if you are building or modifying use only dual contact power points in an RV of any sort, and don't forget to add an RCD if you don't already have one installed, better broke than dead. I also added a changeover switch.
 

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For the record this is how I mounted the panels, not the surf rods under the roof lip, held in plastic coated spring clips.
 

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Will the cells not need more support than that? Alu cased and plastic cased prismatic cells need to be installed with compression to stop them bulging over time is my understanding.

The "Blue" cells I purchased came with came with plastic separators. They are about 3/8" to 1/4" apart. This allows heat to escape. These cells are aluminum cased. Ask yourself this- would you think plastic is stronger than a metal ? The sub-"C" user is a small group. EV and power storage groups are where the money is. Lighter cells and a lower cost. As for the Power storage, cooling tends to be a big deal. It's the plastic cells that need the binding.
 
Consensus seems to be that the Al cells, while smaller and lighter, are not the best choice for off-road apps. Those tiny terminals, compared to bulkier plastic-housed cells, are spot welded and get hot. Terminals on Calbs, for example, are actually part of the casing and will hold up better in mobile applications.
Thought I'd follow up my earlier response above with this observation from @sajjen on Al-cased cells that weren't included in WP's video that kicked this thread off. May opt for the lighter, denser Higee 150Ah cells (sold by BLS) if he confirms capacity that others have for this cell on the forum. They look like they might be a preferable alternative in mobile setups where space and weight are limiting factors.
 
i keep reading about the Structural Worry about these blue aluminum cells - for mobile use -is this really an issue?
i once drove my class C from inside Sebring Raceway over their bridge, thru dirt, grass, gravel and uneven concrete over 1hr home leaving a bottle of water 80% filled on my countertop without it even spilling or falling over (all done accidentally).
So i dont know who's doing the Baja1000 with their RV's but i just don't see this "Structural Worry" being a big thing....
?
 
i keep reading about the Structural Worry about these blue aluminum cells - for mobile use -is this really an issue?
i once drove my class C from inside Sebring Raceway over their bridge, thru dirt, grass, gravel and uneven concrete over 1hr home leaving a bottle of water 80% filled on my countertop without it even spilling or falling over (all done accidentally).
So i dont know who's doing the Baja1000 with their RV's but i just don't see this "Structural Worry" being a big thing....
?

Depends on your use case. I'm not familiar with the Sebring raceway, but I've had battery trays fail on washboard, had battery posts down from friction to the point couldn't hold securely, had a rear spare tire holder bolts vibrate loose, had my passenger window assembly fail, had trim pieces rattle off, and came across a big beefy custom 4x4 class C RV left on the side of a remote death valley road because the wheel studs had all sheered off and it lost a wheel in the middle of nowhere. But short of sheering off your wheel studs, bad washboard will rattle your teeth, stress every screw and fastener, shake loose anything that can shake loose, open drawers and cupboards, and wear through paint and finish anywhere there is a little friction. 5 minutes on washboard probably won't cause anything to fail, 5 hours probably won't either, but if you plan to do a lot of exploring off the beaten path, its something you've got to account for. 90-95% of people will not put themselves in enough situations to spend a lot of time worrying about this type of thing, but for the people that do, it definitely needs to be designed for. But there are probably a lot of other things on your class C that would fail before the batteries would (including possibly the class C itself), so its probably not something to worry about in your case.

Washboards are a bitch, potholes, and rough rocky tracks are no better. off camber situations can also introduce a ton of torsional stress on the vehicles frame and body (not an issue for your batteries, definitely an issue for your RV body--see: the chassis flex in this picture). True overland vehicles are designed to account for this torsion and isolate the body from the frame allowing the frame to twist without transferring those forces to the body of the vehicle, or by strengthening the frame to the point it does not flex and will not fail due to not flexing. In the picture above the camper body is isolated from the frame, that is why you body and the cab are at such extremely different angles. If this were not the case, all that stress would be transferred to the much weaker walls and frame of the camper.

In terms of batteries, two biggest risks I see mechanically would be (1) wear or damage to the sidewalls from long term friction and vibration over months or years, or (2) damage to the internal structure of the battery resulting from shocks and/or friction over time. The marine folks recommend smaller Ah cells <200ah and <=100ah as a best practice due to the potential for larger cells to fail internally due to the repeated shock from waves/water hitting the hull which can be quite jarring.

So in reply to your statement that:
So i dont know who's doing the Baja1000 with their RV's but i just don't see this "Structural Worry" being a big thing....
I think it depends, for you its probably not a worry, and for anyone that doesn't push the limits of a class C, its probably not a worry. But a blanket assumption that '"structural worry" isn't a big thing' is misguided, in my opinion. It just depends what you are designing for, and how harsh an environment you expect to operate in (and what the consequences of failure in your situation are). Probably a good rule of thumb is if you aren't designing/selecting your whole vehicle around operating in harsh conditions, don't bother worrying about battery ruggedness, but if you are, you should worry about the ruggedness of your electrical system and batteries as well.

As for blue cells, I have no idea if they are or aren't up to the task (hence starting this thread), or if some simple modifications like putting a few mm of rigid plastic between the cells, or using some sort of friction pads, or maybe just double sided vhb tape, would mitigate any issues. But I would like to know more and learn from other peoples experiences. Maybe its not worth losing any sleep over, but I tend to overthink and overdesign, and I tend to use my vehicles pretty rough, and go to places where safety and self reliance are pretty important, and I'm pretty tame when it comes to overlanding compared with others.
 
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As for blue cells, I have no idea if they are or aren't up to the task (hence starting this thread), or if some simple modifications like putting a few mm of rigid plastic between the cells, or using some sort of friction pads, or maybe just double sided vhb tape, would mitigate any issues. But I would like to know more and learn from other peoples experiences. Maybe its not worth losing any sleep over, but I tend to overthink and overdesign, and I tend to use my vehicles pretty rough, and go to places where safety and self reliance are pretty important, and I'm pretty tame when it comes to overlanding compared with others.

Hi DzL
Any update on your quest? Regarding the blue AL case cells in a mobile application, I am about to purchase 8 x 271Ah cells from Shenzhen RJ Energy for my Overland vehicle and would realy like to know if there is any structural issues, than I would rather go for the CalB cells from Alliexpress
 
Hi DzL
Any update on your quest? Regarding the blue AL case cells in a mobile application, I am about to purchase 8 x 271Ah cells from Shenzhen RJ Energy for my Overland vehicle and would realy like to know if there is any structural issues, than I would rather go for the CalB cells from Alliexpress

No, no progress as of yet, and no new info.

But regarding the cells you are looking at from RJ-Lithium, it seems to be an emerging best practice in the Marine world to use cells <= 200ah. Apparently the larger the cell the weaker they are internally, and the shock of repeated hull impacts may have led to failure of the cells in a couple cases. This is not confirmed, however. The top two links in my signature are where I got this information.

RJ lithium's prices scale pretty linearly so 8x 271 should be roughly the same cost (incl shipping) as 16x 120 or 140. It might be worth considering a larger number of smaller cells. Even if it is just erring on the side of caution.
 
The "Blue" cells I purchased came with came with plastic separators. They are about 3/8" to 1/4" apart. This allows heat to escape. These cells are aluminum cased.
I have 64 of the same or similar cells, 50Ah, currently in 4P16S config in the front storage locker of my toy hauler. The pack rests on 1” styrofoam for both insulation and shock absorption. I live on a washboard road, so the pack sees its fair share of vibration. No issues so far, but it’s been installed less than a year. I’ll be adding a 200W heat pad between the foam and pack, so time will tell if the plastic carriers will withstand the heat.
 

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Consensus seems to be that the Al cells, while smaller and lighter, are not the best choice for off-road apps. Those tiny terminals, compared to bulkier plastic-housed cells, are spot welded and get hot. Terminals on Calbs, for example, are actually part of the casing and will hold up better in mobile applications.
I wonder about the strength of Fortune style cells vs other Al cased cells? I like the big studs they use for their terminals.

OP, if you watch videos from Australia, lithium batteries are all the rage there for Overland use these days. Both because you can discharge them more, charge them back up faster, and the weight savings.
 
I have 64 of the same or similar cells, 50Ah, currently in 4P16S config in the front storage locker of my toy hauler. The pack rests on 1” styrofoam for both insulation and shock absorption. I live on a washboard road, so the pack sees its fair share of vibration. No issues so far, but it’s been installed less than a year. I’ll be adding a 200W heat pad between the foam and pack, so time will tell if the plastic carriers will withstand the heat.
I Had these same cells in my cabover camper for a year, sold them to a friend to try out something else. No issues at all, ran them with the plastic separators.

On the subject of the "weak" terminals, its BS. I had 8 of them all bolted together via the bus bars, nothing else holding them together, slide off my tailgate and land on cement. thats about a 3' drop, smashed the shit out of the cell that hit the ground first, slightly dented the cell behind. even bent 2 of the 1/8" thick brass buss bars. none of the terminals had an issue and all the cells still functioned perfectly.
 
I Had these same cells in my cabover camper for a year, sold them to a friend to try out something else. No issues at all, ran them with the plastic separators.

On the subject of the "weak" terminals, its BS. I had 8 of them all bolted together via the bus bars, nothing else holding them together, slide off my tailgate and land on cement. thats about a 3' drop, smashed the shit out of the cell that hit the ground first, slightly dented the cell behind. even bent 2 of the 1/8" thick brass buss bars. none of the terminals had an issue and all the cells still functioned perfectly.
I think the weakness in some is screws that are too short. I know one poster here had one strip out. IIRC, they're replacing them with 20mm long studs. That really sounds like a better way to do it. Then you get full thread engagement in the terminal. Pretty cheap way for some insurance about stripping them out. The other thing, were your's M4 or M6 screws/bolts?

Back around 1970, Kawasaki used soft bolts for the chain adjusters on my motorcycle. The fix was screw 1/4" bolts as replacements. They were slightly larger, but would just screw in and were stronger. They must have been some form of M6 bolt.
 
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i believe m6, had a 10mm hex head.
M6 is real close to .25"s. IIRC on those chain tensioners,You could thread in a 1/4x20 bolt and fix a stripped metric one. But that 50 years ago and I'm not sure exactly what it was.
 
I'm one of those car campers in the bushes too.

Truth is, I think we are the guinea pigs. LiFePO4 is a fairly new chemistry in the grand scheme, so not many have been taken off-road for millions of miles. I'm okay with that, because for me overloading is all about a bit of an adventure.

That said, I believe the CALB polymer casings and the aluminum casings are probably both up to the job of most overlander terrain & traverses. Washboard sucks terribly, and if it damages one construction it would probably damage the other.

@Solar_Mann thanks for the VHB tape suggestion. You nailed it. I think I'll VHB the cells together. VHB is ridiculously strong and used as a key binding agent for skyscraper windows. The trade-off is that if one cell becomes faulty, good luck dissecting the pack. I'm okay with that, as that's part of the bargain of building my own battery.

My setup will be 12v packs of 280ah aluminum cells bound to each other with VHB tape and held in compression by two HDPE boards with threaded aluminum rods and an HDPE 'base'. Then slap some foam padding around it, put it in a tight fitting battery box, and further foam & rubber padding around the box.
 
I'm one of those car campers in the bushes too.

Truth is, I think we are the guinea pigs. LiFePO4 is a fairly new chemistry in the grand scheme, so not many have been taken off-road for millions of miles. I'm okay with that, because for me overloading is all about a bit of an adventure.

That said, I believe the CALB polymer casings and the aluminum casings are probably both up to the job of most overlander terrain & traverses. Washboard sucks terribly, and if it damages one construction it would probably damage the other.

@Solar_Mann thanks for the VHB tape suggestion. You nailed it. I think I'll VHB the cells together. VHB is ridiculously strong and used as a key binding agent for skyscraper windows. The trade-off is that if one cell becomes faulty, good luck dissecting the pack. I'm okay with that, as that's part of the bargain of building my own battery.

My setup will be 12v packs of 280ah aluminum cells bound to each other with VHB tape and held in compression by two HDPE boards with threaded aluminum rods and an HDPE 'base'. Then slap some foam padding around it, put it in a tight fitting battery box, and further foam & rubber padding around the box.
So you're one of them, Overloading your Overlanding Rig.... LOL.. Autocorrect strikes again....
Do you have the 280AH cells already? I've read some posts here where the cell manufactuers reconmend 200aH or less for cells used in boating and mobile appalcations, because they they have better internal structural integrity.
 
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