PIP812LV-MS Internal Ground Fault Protection?

[tucsonjwt]

Does the subject "all in one" inverter/charger/charge controller have any internal ground fault protection. I tried to contact the manufacturer but that has to be done via their website, and the email won't go through on their site. I could just run the AC output to a GFCI receptacle if the unit does not have internal GFCI protection, but two GFCIs in series has caused trouble for me in the past, hence this question. Thanks.

 

[b.james]

Generally I have not found an inverter with a ground fault device or a residual current device so I just put one in on the inverters output lines . I have another thread going trying to discuss these so we'll see whats said . My RCD's work well .
EDIT well I had better say " They appear to work very well"

 

[gnubie]

None of the documentation I've seen for them indicate they have any of that type of protection. The problem with this sort of thing is a lot of people don't understand how they work, and as a result have systems that don't actually protect them. Of course that doesn't preclude people not knowing how they work, but actually having a fully functional protection system by pure luck. That's a game of chance no one should play.

It is possible to get inverters with integrated RCD (or GFCI if you prefer) but if the unit isn't appropriately earthed and the earth and neutral bonded to meet local regulations the RCD will not protect you from coming between the active/live/line wire and the actual ground that people walk on. It is also important to understand that without that return path you can put yourself across active/live/line and neutral, be standing on the ground, fry yourself to a crisp, and the RCD couldn't care less. Of course if you stand on a plastic bucket and connect yourself across active and neutral the RCD will not trip either, again because there is no alternate return path.

 

[b.james]

So all of the RCD's that are required to be fitted in Australia by law are all wrong and don't work according to you ? care to explain what you are trying to say with a circuit?

 

[gnubie]

I doubt it would make any difference. The text of what I said is pretty hard to misunderstand unless the intent is to deliberately feign misunderstanding. Anyone that wants to understand how RCDs work can find plenty of accurate information with a simple Google search.

Perhaps you can state precisely what it is that you think is wrong with my understanding, and the rest of the worlds including, rather amusingly, that wikipedia article you retro-fitted to your post.

 

[Donald Siegel]

Gnubie how can you be a moderator in a newbie section of a forum where members go admitting limited understanding of solar systems? You write a cryptic post (for a newbie audience) then insult a member who asked for clarification by implying that they may be purposely feigning misunderstanding! It’s hard to know how to say how inappropriate your reply was. A bit more appropriate reply would state something like: Bottom line it’s dangerous to not have a proper earth ground, you won’t get an effective ground protection from your hardware alone so you need to handle that. I’m no expert but I am guessing the answer would be drive to an 8 foot earth ground into the soil, connect it with solid copper ground wire to you system as show in this picture or diagram (that you declined to provide). If it is an RV installation do this..... (I have no clue on that one).

 

[b.james]

Well said Donald Siegel I'm perhaps going to try that earth pole but now I am confused as to what might happen if I do . Combine that with the lightening ,earthing discussion elsewhere and the potential to be thousands of volts difference between two separate points on the earth in a lightening strike and I am just floundering around flaping wondering whats best.

Perhaps you can state precisely what it is that you think is wrong with my understanding, and the rest of the worlds including, rather amusingly, that wikipedia article you retro-fitted to your post.

I guess you are refering to my edit to clarify what I meant in the other thread . Why make it out to be something sinister I have done and why post it in this thread? If the rest of the world knows the answer perhaps you can point them in my direction so I can get an answer without your interuption with vague rubbish which is all it appears to be atm.

Anyone that wants to understand how RCDs work can find plenty of accurate information with a simple Google search.

I don't want to know how my RCD works . The wiki tells me in depth .
What I want to know is how to protect my inverters output line?

None of that addresses the original posters question on the all in one unit and RCD's use with that . I am considering buying one too and would like to find out whatever I can on that before I commit.

 

[mtt04]

To reiterate an important point.

People are here to seek help not be criticized for not knowing.

 

[svetz]

Gnubie how can you be a moderator ...

You're thinking about moderators incorrectly. We are not electrical engineers, electricians, or even actors pretending to be them. Moderators are merely people that look for inappropriate behavior and then take action. He's trying to help best as he can, same as everyone else and if he gets frustrated at times, only human same as you.

That said, yeah... no one should assume actions from other's behaviors/posts. It's like the sign in the passenger mirror reworded to, posters may be more confused than they appear.

And in that vein, here's my attempt: http://www.diysolarforum.com/index.php?threads/rcds-what-do-you-use-what-do-you-think.657/post-5869

 

[Donald Siegel]

Time to move after this on but if a moderators chief job is to limit inappropriate behavior then posting this in a beginners section when a member had a question....

“I doubt it would make any difference. The text of what I said is pretty hard to misunderstand unless the intent is to deliberately feign misunderstanding.”

Pretty much would make this seem like a place where beginner questions are not welcome and you may be mocked for asking them. Perhaps not his intent but as I said not a great response by someone with “staff and moderator” after his name. Part of Will’s gift is explaining things in such basic detail that he will remind you that red is positive and make you feel OK for not knowing that. It would be great to keep up that spirit here.

 

[svetz]

Hey @Donald Siegel, I doubt anyone would disagree with that. Stuff happens, best we can hope is that we learn from it.

If anyone wants to continue this topic, there is another thread that has morphed into it here.

Hey tucsonjwt, getting back on the thread's topic.... have any of the technical responses helped you or do you still have questions? My last post seems to have helped b.james, so just want to see how you were doing.

 

[Supervstech]

Gnubie how can you be a moderator in a newbie section of a forum where members go admitting limited understanding of solar systems? You write a cryptic post (for a newbie audience) then insult a member who asked for clarification by implying that they may be purposely feigning misunderstanding! It’s hard to know how to say how inappropriate your reply was. A bit more appropriate reply would state something like: Bottom line it’s dangerous to not have a proper earth ground, you won’t get an effective ground protection from your hardware alone so you need to handle that. I’m no expert but I am guessing the answer would be drive to an 8 foot earth ground into the soil, connect it with solid copper ground wire to you system as show in this picture or diagram (that you declined to provide). If it is an RV installation do this..... (I have no clue on that one).

A GFCI/RCD will open line when current exceeds spec, around 100mv imbalance between live and neutral.

meaning they work if a current path other than between line and neutral is sensed.

if an inverter with a GFCI/RCD is not grounded to the area it is servicing, an RCD will not sense any imbalance.
and of course, if you put yourself on the neutral path the RCD will not trip.
Grounded to the area does not mean putting in a ground rod... it means tying the ground point of the inverter to the entire grounding system in the area.

water pipes, metal surfaces, and the earth via ground rod.
Here has to be a fault current path for the RCD to trip.

that isn’t a flaw in the RCD, it is simple electrical flow dynamics. I.E. path of least resistance.
Be safe everybody.

 

[tucsonjwt]

I am just getting back to the solar project after experiencing an unfortunate medical issue just after making this initial post.

I guess the bottom line is that without an earth ground you really can't have a grounded solar system, although I do see RV solar systems with a ground running to the vehicle frame.

I have some experience wiring a few houses, but I have no DC experience.

I am planning off grid solar for a backyard utility trailer I use as a workshop/office. This is what I am thinking:

1600 watts of 72 cell solar panels mounted at a 10 degree fixed tilt. (I must tilt the panels to clear the roof vents on my trailer.)

All in one Growatt 24V charge controller/inverter like the 3kw 120Vac 2kw mppt charge controller.

Batteries? I would like a 2kwh to 3kwh battery bank of new cells. I was going to use Battle Born 12v batteries and series them to 24 volts, but Big Battery has more power for about 1/2 the price. I am concerned about their 30 day warranty - makes me think they don't trust the product they are selling. Their 24V LiFePO4 powerwall with new cells sounds interesting for $2,000 delivered, but the 24V A123 LFP battery box($900 delivered) would work for me if they are made with new cells, and I could parallel them if I need more battery storage. The big power consumption will be in the summer when the air conditioning is running at night (the solar panels should cover the a/c load during the peak sunlight hours.) The summer temperature at night in the Tucson desert is in the 90+ degree range. It is still around 100 degrees here in the month of October. The trailer will need to be kept at about 74 degrees so the battery life won't be compromised, even if I am not in the trailer.

Any suggestions you might have will be appreciated.

Thanks.

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