diy solar

diy solar

Powering your house from a V2L-capable EV

In normal usage, I have to agree, the car battery won't be powering the house, the car will just absorb the extra solar from the house. All EV's can do this now with a smart EVSE level 2 charger in the house. The V2L power going the other is when you need more power for some reason. Most likely a grid outage or very poor solar production due to bad weather. Having that extra power available can save you in a bad situation.

If the grid is down, and solar production is horrible. THEN you can drive to a charge station (one that still has power) and bring home 30 KWHs to use to keep the house alive. Not much different from getting a can of gas to run the generator.
 
My off grid setup charges my EV ... personally I'm against V2L, i want the fuel to stay in the car.
For all those frequent occasions whee you have an extended power outage and have a great deal of driving to do…
 
Until there is something more standardized I think hooking a chargeverter up to a car outlet and backfeeding through that will be the way to go. It can be nice to have a secondary use for all those kwh, but at least for my use case, a chargeverter is probably the way to go.
 
Commercially there is a device you can buy to achieve this super complex task and make it easy and convenient to use, have a look at this link, 5kW V2H from CCS2
Nice! Thanks to share.
Still, the EV need to be V2L/V2X ready.
Many EV are not ready, or I would say, many manufacturers don't allow their EV's to be ready.
Theoretically, all EV should be ready, but sadly many don't have proper software to be ready.
 
Nice! Thanks to share.
Still, the EV need to be V2L/V2X ready.
Many EV are not ready, or I would say, many manufacturers don't allow their EV's to be ready.
Theoretically, all EV should be ready, but sadly many don't have proper software to be ready.
Hardware and software I would think.

I still think this is a fairly dumb idea. Sacrificing mobility for a local power need does not strike me as a win. The biggest chunk of this is that the battery pack on the vehicle is very large, but bleeding power from it takes away mobility. I'd rather spend $$ on putting additional battery capacity at my local need, than rigging up something to bleed it from my vehicle. YMMV. I want enough local capacity to go the other way as needed to bleed off excess production when I can't be home to use the vehicle as a dump load.
 
My car can only V2L 2200w ... so not really a practical option.
"So not really a practical option" I wonder if that is really the case: (edit)
If a home is using 30kW/day, that is 1.25kW continuous.
I checked on my normal steady loads, these run about 1.1kW steady in my set up, and during a storm situation, can be reduced.
A large ESS could support bigger loads for short duration - like a well pump for example - an EV could power a dedicated battery charger and extend the home ESS run time considerably.
 
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an EV could power a dedicated battery charger and extend the home ESS run time considerably.
Interesting idea.

You have your hybrid inverter with its own battery bank. That charges from solar when the sun shines but the house runs from the battery otherwise.

I have an Ioniq 5 with V2L rated at 1800 watts. Let's say this can put in 1.2 KW into the battery by the time we leave some margin and account for charger efficiency. That is 28.8 KWH per day. If your house is on backup mode, that seems like more than you need.

My parent's house runs 50 KWH per day, but take out the pool pump, irrigation pump, HVAC, dryer, and other big loads you can do without during a grid down situation, the car could easily keep things humming along a lot longer.

My battery is 77 KWH in the car. You can't use the last 20% for V2L, and the V2L inverter is not particularly efficient. The net results is that starting at 100% and going to 20%, you can get about 50 KWH from the V2L car port.

Due to the V2L low efficiency especially at low draw, you do not want to let it idle with a topped off inverter battery. You would wait until the inverter drops to, say, 50%, then plug in your V2L, top it up to, say 80%, and stop it.

The inverter battery provides the buffer to handle peak loads.

The total efficiency is not great. DC from solar array is made into AC. That AC is changed by the car to charge the DC battery. The DC battery is converted to AC by the car for the V2L adapter. The AC from the car is converted to DC by the inverter battery charger. The DC of the battery is converted to AC by the inverter to power the house. And, in many cases, the AC is converted once again the DC by the appliance or device.

That's 6 total possible AC/DC conversions. You wouldn't want to use this as a general means to store energy, but only as a backup means to extend the inverter battery pack.

One feature of this method is that you can drive the car to a DC fast charger (one that has power when you don't), top it up, and bring it home to run the house. This is the equivalent of buying gas for the generator.

This idea has merit to extend backup time instead of buying a much larger inverter battery stack.

Mike C.
 
During the last real power failure I had, my battery bank was running pretty low, since I was running the house on battery, for 4 hours already, not expecting a power failure. The governor on my old generator is not working very well, so the rpm bounces a bit too much, so my XW-Pro would not stay connected. and kept going to off grid battery mode.

So I used my E-Bike charger on the generator to charge the house battery. The generator had no trouble running the refrigerator and the 600 watt charger. Yes, my E-Bike also uses 14S Lithium Ion battery packs. That was very intentional.

600 watts may not sound like a lot, but it is 600 more than nothing. And with the refrigerator load also removed from the battery bank,. it did charge up nearly 2 KWHs before I shut down the generator for the night.

So that 2,200 watts from the V2L would do wonders during a power failure. Something like a 2 KW charge running off the car outlet would be great.
 
My battery is 77 KWH in the car. You can't use the last 20% for V2L, and the V2L inverter is not particularly efficient. The net results is that starting at 100% and going to 20%, you can get about 50 KWH from the V2L car port.

Due to the V2L low efficiency especially at low draw, you do not want to let it idle with a topped off inverter battery. You would wait until the inverter drops to, say, 50%, then plug in your V2L, top it up to, say 80%, and stop it.

E-GMP EV, right? I missed this efficiency issue when I was planning how to use my V2L, and only caught it in January during my first power outage with it. A lot of the efficiency issue is actually just having the EV on, and probably not isolatable to the V2L inverter. Also did not know about the 20% threshold, which was awkward when I discovered it at 39% SoC in combination with the low efficiency (I have a DCFC near my house that is on a separate segment of the electrical grid, so I just had to drive out and top off)

I think these EVs lose around 1% per hour when running a 200W background load, on top of having the car started up.

I need to add something to add 120/240 to the V2L. Charger + AIO + buffer battery or Autotransformer. Not sure yet which way to go.

One feature of this method is that you can drive the car to a DC fast charger (one that has power when you don't), top it up, and bring it home to run the house. This is the equivalent of buying gas for the generator.
For the ~5 power outages the past two years here, at most 1 of these power outages also hit the closest DCFC to me.

There wasn't even a special line at the DCFC when I was topping off during the power outage. Maybe since there aren't that many people using V2L to backup their house.

Last year I bought a generator to deal with the power outages. It's much easier to use V2L in a typical power outage.

I can leave the EV backfeeding the house while it sits quietly in the garage. Portable generator is not fit to run unaccompanied during a storm. Also, a portable generator is pretty inefficient at multiple layers itself. Unless you charge a battery, you have idle losses at low output. You also likely have to burn off some gasoline before putting the generator in storage.

You could of course do both -- gas generator into a 120V EVSE into the car. And then you can keep going with either gas available or with DCFC available, without needing a house battery. The 120V EVSE unfortunately will be kind of wasteful unless the car can charge > 1.5 kW (the car probably draws 200W-400W while charging).

Sure, in a SHTF power outage where I need to fight raiders for gasoline and there are no DCFC, maybe the tri-fuel generator is the way to go.
600 watts may not sound like a lot, but it is 600 more than nothing. And with the refrigerator load also removed from the battery bank,. it did charge up nearly 2 KWHs before I shut down the generator for the night.

This. Having been through a lot of power outages recently, the first 250W is huge. So is the first 1.8kW (which lets you cook / make coffee). And you only need that 1.8kW for maybe 10 min, for the kind of cooking you're doing in a power outage if all you have is a few kWh of backup power.

My main beef with V2L is that the most common ones (I think mciholas and I both have E-GMP EVs) don't branch out from single phase inverters, and 120V only is annoying for backup power.

Keep in mind the 100A minimum service we have in the US is like enough for a whole apartment building in some countries. Some places have less power for whole apartment than we're required to have for just the kitchen 120V circuits.
 
E-GMP EV, right?
Yes. 2023 Ioniq 5, RWD. Nice car.

I missed this efficiency issue when I was planning how to use my V2L
Yeah, there is a reasonably high background load on V2L so you want to use in a way you load it down close to max and then shut it off. Say inverter battery is under 50%, then turn it on until inverter battery is 80% and shut it off. This keeps you from exploring the bottom of the inverter battery but also keeps you out of the taper charge above 80%.

I need to add something to add 120/240 to the V2L. Charger + AIO + buffer battery or Autotransformer. Not sure yet which way to go.
Simplest system is an off grid split phase inverter with a battery. Have that power the house like a generator, and have the car V2L charge the battery. When grid power is available, move the charger AC input to normal outlet to recharge from the grid.

Now you have 120/240 split phase and some load leveling with the inverter battery. If the inverter has solar inputs, then that can charge the battery, too, but an AIO would be better to use that power all the time, not just grid down.

For the ~5 power outages the past two years here, at most 1 of these power outages also hit the closest DCFC to me.
A DCFC has to be near main lines, they have 1 MW or higher peak power. That usually means they are more robust than residential power which goes through streets, trees, etc. It is the final few miles of power that takes the worst damage in a storm. You also know they are recent installed, not 100 year old poles and lines.

Sure, in a SHTF power outage where I need to fight raiders for gasoline and there are no DCFC, maybe the tri-fuel generator is the way to go.
In this case, a full inverter battery and a full car battery can give you the option to stretch your energy for weeks potentially if you manage it closely. Ultimately, no fuel will save you from the Zombie Apocalypse since you will run out eventually. The best bet there is a relatively big inverter battery with solar panels. Well, if the sun doesn't go out. If that happens, you are fracked anyway.

My main beef with V2L is that the most common ones (I think mciholas and I both have E-GMP EVs) don't branch out from single phase inverters, and 120V only is annoying for backup power.
That's why you put an inverter into the system, let it make the split phase AC, let the battery charge from single phase 120 VAC sporadically provided by the car.

Mike C.
 
Yes. 2023 Ioniq 5, RWD. Nice car.
Exact one I have too. Car is really sweet to drive. Kind of salty about not timing the purchase optimally for the current glut in the market (I saw 30 parked on the dealer lot last week). Other than that, my only complaints are the lack of manual start for fast charge pre-conditioning (I need to figure out how to make the navigation-based one work for me) and the frame rattles because they cheaped out on glue / foam in some places.

Now you have 120/240 split phase and some load leveling with the inverter battery. If the inverter has solar inputs, then that can charge the battery, too, but an AIO would be better to use that power all the time, not just grid down.

The reason the autotransformer is still in the mix is that the autotransformer is easier to permit for a given cost. Maybe if the AIO is not considered an ESS it can be exempt from UL9540. AFAIU it is tricky because ESS and UPS are not clearly delineated in code; and AIOs are generally not listed as a UPS, so can't easily be called a backup power source. Another code issue is that the latest building code iteration requires you to follow the EV maker's instructions when backfeeding a house, but I think backfeeding with AC V2L is justifiable. Hacking up some DC V2X is a lot less kosher.

Did you backfeed into your electrical system or use an extension cord? I'm curious what the GFCI and bonding behavior is.

Ultimately, no fuel will save you from the Zombie Apocalypse since you will run out eventually. The best bet there is a relatively big inverter battery with solar panels. Well, if the sun doesn't go out. If that happens, you are fracked anyway.
Battery would probably die after 20-30 years. Electrolytic caps/other similar wear items will also probably go bad by then (but you can probably stock a lot of them). Hope civilization rebuilds at that point. Or someone establishes a trade network digging up cells from the wrecks of Chinese battery factories.
 
Nice! Thanks to share.
Still, the EV need to be V2L/V2X ready.
Many EV are not ready, or I would say, many manufacturers don't allow their EV's to be ready.
Theoretically, all EV should be ready, but sadly many don't have proper software to be ready.
Technically speaking, with this device as long as the EV has CCS port it is ready for V2X. I tested it wih Tesla and it work!. Just plug the CCS cable in and you get an off-grid 5kW AC 220v 50Hz power for anything you want.
 
Technically speaking, with this device as long as the EV has CCS port it is ready for V2X. I tested it wih Tesla and it work!. Just plug the CCS cable in and you get an off-grid 5kW AC 220v 50Hz power for anything you want.
Doubtful on the universal compatibility. All it takes is for hall effect sensor or shunt to detect non-kosher power flow & for EV to lock down the CCS contactors or BMS.

Ideally it would reset on its own, rather than requiring a EV mechanic to unlock it. In the latter scenario, you have a bad/expensive day

Also, as I said above in another post, it is not code compliant to do this with the 2023 iteration (it's either IRC or NEC, can't remember)
 
Doubtful on the universal compatibility. All it takes is for hall effect sensor or shunt to detect non-kosher power flow & for EV to lock down the CCS contactors or BMS.

Ideally it would reset on its own, rather than requiring a EV mechanic to unlock it. In the latter scenario, you have a bad/expensive day

Also, as I said above in another post, it is not code compliant to do this with the 2023 iteration (it's either IRC or NEC, can't remember)
You are right, not all all EV will accept the reverse charging, but so far all Chinese EV and Tesla work fine with this device. I will continue to do interoperabilty test and publish the result once we go commercial.

It is important to note that I can't guarantee car manufacturer will not change their mind to not allow reverse charging in the future. But IMHO they should work on implementing ISO-15118-20 on their newer model to create a truly bi-directional energy transfer EV rather than busy patch up the older EV which already sold.

As for compliant, from grid perspective the device comply with IEC 62109-2 (off-grid mode inverter only) . It produce 5-15kW AC 220v 50Hz to power anything you want from your EV main battery. Simply plug the CCS cable to your EV and in 30s you get the power.
 
It is important to note that I can't guarantee car manufacturer will not change their mind to not allow reverse charging in the future. But IMHO they should work on implementing ISO-15118-20 on their newer model to create a truly bi-directional energy transfer EV rather than busy patch up the older EV which already sold.
I'm hoping when they update US EVs to NACS they also add bidirectional capability in that patch.

I think the other thing that helps you is that a lot of EVs are hard to update (need to go to the dealer to get power system firmware updates).
As for compliant, from grid perspective the device comply with IEC 62109-2 (off-grid mode inverter only) . It produce 5-15kW AC 220v 50Hz to power anything you want from your EV main battery. Simply plug the CCS cable to your EV and in 30s you get the power.
By my understanding, the new code on this (california and may extend elsewhere) means that off-grid inverters (UL1741 off grid) connected to a EV that is not sanctioned for bidirectional mode by the manufacturer is not legal. I have no idea how this would be enforced though. Probably the rule being in place will add a disincentive for contractors to offer to install the hardware, and for manufacturers to design / market such hardware, if the customer does not have a vehicle with official support.
 
and publish the result once we go commercial.
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