Victron is Over-priced Eurotrash. Why would anybody buy Victron over an AiO?
- Thread starter sunshine_eggo
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Partimewages
Solar Addict
Low
Zwy
Emperor Of Solar
I'm not certain the Midnite will be a good fit. I think the surge capability will work fine, I don't care for the "stuff" at the bottom.
Slow release too.
I'm looking at a pair of inverters and a pair of 10K Quattros would work very well and actually end up cheaper using some cheap SCC's/AIO's for DC charging or AC coupling which I most likely won't do as this will be off grid.
I appreciate that. I wonder why it's so lightweight .
Partimewages
Solar Addict
Probably because it doesn't include SCC and other AIO components.
I'm comparing the 5kva to a sunny island 6kw and the sunny island is like 130lbs but the multiplus is 42lbs?
Schneider xw pro ,6kw ,also about 130 lbs
sunshine_eggo
Happy Breffast!
It depends on who you ask. Unfortunately, the terms LF and HF aren't accurately used anymore.
LF typically means it has a big transformer and has strong surge capabilities.
HF typically means it doesn't have a big transformer, and the surge capability is poor.
They are technically high frequency inverters, but they have a big transformer.
Inverter - Victron Energy
Pure sine wave output, high peak power and high efficiency. Combined high frequency and line frequency technologies. Ensure the best of both worlds,
Pure sine wave output, high peak power and high efficiency. Combined high frequency and line frequency technologies ensure the best of both worlds.
You're looking at the 3kVA unit. The MP-II 5kVA is 71#.
Thanks. You're right it's 71lbs. So what does the transformer do in a high frequency inverter?It depends on who you ask. Unfortunately, the terms LF and HF aren't accurately used anymore.
LF typically means it has a big transformer and has strong surge capabilities.
HF typically means it doesn't have a big transformer, and the surge capability is poor.
They are technically high frequency inverters, but they have a big transformer.
Inverter - Victron Energy
Pure sine wave output, high peak power and high efficiency. Combined high frequency and line frequency technologies. Ensure the best of both worlds,www.victronenergy.com
Pure sine wave output, high peak power and high efficiency. Combined high frequency and line frequency technologies ensure the best of both worlds.
You're looking at the 3kVA unit. The MP-II 5kVA is 71#.
Picked up the MPII from FedEx, I can confirm the 24v3k has plenty of gravity.
Packaging from CC is impeccable, with BT dongle and USB adapter all in one nice solid box.
I haven’t torn into it yet, saving myself for tomorrow so I can do it properly and not rush.
Packaging from CC is impeccable, with BT dongle and USB adapter all in one nice solid box.
I haven’t torn into it yet, saving myself for tomorrow so I can do it properly and not rush.
Q-Dog
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I have to admit, I ordered a Xantrex X1200 inverter/charger but cancelled it when they couldn't ship it for a week or two. I know the blue box doesn't have a charger, but it has better surge rating than the Xantrex.
Last edited:
sunshine_eggo
Happy Breffast!
This question implies that you think you know how an inverter ACTUALLY works. Good for you. I don't.
It does exactly what you think SMA/Outback/Schneider use theirs for.
Again, the terms LF and HF no longer represent how they actually operate. The only difference between our understanding is that I have the faintest of notions that the conventional terminology is inaccurate.
Your SMA, Outback, etc., may also be high frequency inverters, but they also utilize the large transformer.
I invite you to explore these three references:
Inverters High or Low Frequency ?
Any LF or HF inverter I would consider is pure sine wave and you can find YT videos that show they are pretty clean. Although idle consumption will be higher I believe you answered your own question when you mentioned 10x surge needs. Clearly a big honking transformer is needed here right? If...
diysolarforum.com
Inverters High or Low Frequency ?
Any LF or HF inverter I would consider is pure sine wave and you can find YT videos that show they are pretty clean. Although idle consumption will be higher I believe you answered your own question when you mentioned 10x surge needs. Clearly a big honking transformer is needed here right? If...
diysolarforum.com
When I refer to the cheap high frequency inverters, I always use "lightweight" to imply there is not a big transformer in them.
Inverters 101
There are a few ways to make an AC voltage out of a DC source. Traditionally, these are (skipping modified sine wave) low and high frequency inverters. The traditional low frequency inverter uses a power stage that uses a ferroresonant transformer, but these are not used in contemporary designs so let's stick with the current definitions of low and high frequency inverters. Note: traditional LF inverters had all kinds of disadvantages such as efficiency and idle power consumption, which are mostly mitigated in modern designs.
High Frequency
In a high frequency design, the low voltage DC supply is first converter to a high voltage DC, using a DC/DC converter. This DC/DC conversion uses a high frequency switching conversion. Because of the way the DC/DC converter works, you get essentially a high frequency low voltage AC signal, which is then boosted by a high frequency transformer after which it is then rectified to DC.
In a second stage, this high voltage DC is then converted to AC using PWM on the power output stage.
Low Frequency
In a low frequency design, the low voltage DC supply is fist converted to a low voltage AC signal (it's a chopped waveform). This step is using high frequency PWM (typically 3 to 20kHz). This output is then boosted with a low frequency transformer. This low frequency transformer is the bulky, heavy iron core transformer, preferably a toroidal transformer.
So what about Victron?
Victron calls it a 'hybrid' design, but it's actually a low frequency inverter as per the definitions above. So why is the SMA heavier than the Victron? It's because the SMA can surge more and can be overloaded for longer compared to the Victron in the same power range. However, the Victron is slightly more efficient and has a lower self consumption, and is smaller/lighter (it's a feature). Remember Victron comes from the marine world where these things matter a lot more compared to where SMA comes from.
There are a few ways to make an AC voltage out of a DC source. Traditionally, these are (skipping modified sine wave) low and high frequency inverters. The traditional low frequency inverter uses a power stage that uses a ferroresonant transformer, but these are not used in contemporary designs so let's stick with the current definitions of low and high frequency inverters. Note: traditional LF inverters had all kinds of disadvantages such as efficiency and idle power consumption, which are mostly mitigated in modern designs.
High Frequency
In a high frequency design, the low voltage DC supply is first converter to a high voltage DC, using a DC/DC converter. This DC/DC conversion uses a high frequency switching conversion. Because of the way the DC/DC converter works, you get essentially a high frequency low voltage AC signal, which is then boosted by a high frequency transformer after which it is then rectified to DC.
In a second stage, this high voltage DC is then converted to AC using PWM on the power output stage.
Low Frequency
In a low frequency design, the low voltage DC supply is fist converted to a low voltage AC signal (it's a chopped waveform). This step is using high frequency PWM (typically 3 to 20kHz). This output is then boosted with a low frequency transformer. This low frequency transformer is the bulky, heavy iron core transformer, preferably a toroidal transformer.
So what about Victron?
Victron calls it a 'hybrid' design, but it's actually a low frequency inverter as per the definitions above. So why is the SMA heavier than the Victron? It's because the SMA can surge more and can be overloaded for longer compared to the Victron in the same power range. However, the Victron is slightly more efficient and has a lower self consumption, and is smaller/lighter (it's a feature). Remember Victron comes from the marine world where these things matter a lot more compared to where SMA comes from.
Thanks for posting this vid.This question implies that you think you know how an inverter ACTUALLY works. Good for you. I don't.
It does exactly what you think SMA/Outback/Schneider use theirs for.
Again, the terms LF and HF no longer represent how they actually operate. The only difference between our understanding is that I have the faintest of notions that the conventional terminology is inaccurate.
Your SMA, Outback, etc., may also be high frequency inverters, but they also utilize the large transformer.
I invite you to explore these three references:
Inverters High or Low Frequency ?
Any LF or HF inverter I would consider is pure sine wave and you can find YT videos that show they are pretty clean. Although idle consumption will be higher I believe you answered your own question when you mentioned 10x surge needs. Clearly a big honking transformer is needed here right? If...
Inverters High or Low Frequency ?
Any LF or HF inverter I would consider is pure sine wave and you can find YT videos that show they are pretty clean. Although idle consumption will be higher I believe you answered your own question when you mentioned 10x surge needs. Clearly a big honking transformer is needed here right? If...
When I refer to the cheap high frequency inverters, I always use "lightweight" to imply there is not a big transformer in them.
24v3k MPII unboxed, lab power supply providing temp source, 10-12w idle consumption, love it! The power supply seemed like it had minimal inrush, I had max current set to like 2A or less.
I took a peak under her petticoat, man that’s a huge transformer!!! Love the looks of all the connections and wiring. Case screws are all nice and threaded.
On my list will be mounting to a 2’x4’ 3/4“ sheet of plywood and organize my 120v outputs and Lynx wiring. This will be a “semi portable” install at the camp, with provisions to break it down and bring it home each winter (maybe use it for those winter power outages at home)
I was able to set up the BT dongle and did a firmware update all very straightforward with no surprises.
I took a peak under her petticoat, man that’s a huge transformer!!! Love the looks of all the connections and wiring. Case screws are all nice and threaded.
On my list will be mounting to a 2’x4’ 3/4“ sheet of plywood and organize my 120v outputs and Lynx wiring. This will be a “semi portable” install at the camp, with provisions to break it down and bring it home each winter (maybe use it for those winter power outages at home)
I was able to set up the BT dongle and did a firmware update all very straightforward with no surprises.
sunshine_eggo
Happy Breffast!
I re-watched it and felt a little less dumb.
I've spent the last day studying the ess manual. I'm so disappointed at victron that they don't have a USA grid code and there is no guidance on the "other" grid code.
Two 48/5000/120 in ess mode would supply 95% of my annual consumption
Call it future proof knowing people want to drop the grid as soon as possible.
Grid tied market is already pretty saturated, I’m guessing it’s just not worth the beans.
sunshine_eggo
Happy Breffast!
dropping the grid is not a good idea. Even victron mentions that. With ess mode with the grid in parallel you can supply most of your home loads with a smaller inverter and smaller battery.
grid tie with storage is an untapped market with unlimited potential
Thanks. Ive watched that a couple of times. Still hard to make such a purchase without knowing with the "other" grid code options are. do you perchance have any screenshots of the options under "other"? thanks