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Update from Lead Acid to LFP Batteries

OffGridCO

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Apr 2, 2024
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Hi all, New around here with some questions - most immediately about batteries.

I bought an off grid cabin in the mountains back almost 4 years ago with very annoying to maintain flooded lead acid batteries. Specifically Crown CR-370 batteries. 16 of the massive things in a combo series/parallel, set up to run at 48V (each battery is 6V, so two series of 8 batteries). I am simply done with them and looking to replace this summer. Lots of headaches with distilled water and tons of time keeping terminals clean and etc...

There is an electrical room the size of a large closet built onto the back side of the cabin holding all the gear and batteries. So new batteries don't need to be water proof, but it does get below freezing at times in that space in winter so I think I need self heating batteries. Preferably ones that use incoming solar to run the heating elements (Is that a thing? or do all self heating batteries reserve a bit of power to self heat?).

I am thinking server rack batteries are likely the best option and I'm likely to upgrade the total storage too. Current batteries have theoretical ~17.7KW of useful capacity at 50% discharge. I'm planning to upgrade with more solar panels at some point (1-2 years out) and think perhaps 6 rack batteries all bought at the same time is better than trying to buy fewer now then expand to more in the future? With the current panels ~16-20KW of storage is probably correct, but more shouldn't hurt. Obviously I'm only semi-knowledgeable on this equipment at the moment, but trying to learn fast.

Looking to see what everyone thinks for self heating batteries that might be a good option. The inverter is a Schneider XW+ that can output up to 6.8KW continuous. A Midnight Solar charge controller is feeding power in from the 4KW solar array. There is a small generator also attached that hardly runs (it's set up to be automatic).

Still trying to decide if I want to do the upgrade(s) myself or hire out when it comes time.

Thoughts or ideas?
 
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Hi all, New around here with some questions - most immediately about batteries.

I bought an off grid cabin in the mountains back almost 4 years ago with very annoying to maintain flooded lead acid batteries. Specifically Crown CR-370 batteries. 16 of the massive things in a combo series/parallel, set up to run at 48V (each battery is 6V, so two series of 8 batteries). I am simply done with them and looking to replace this summer. Lots of headaches with distilled water and tons of time keeping terminals clean and etc...

There is an electrical room the size of a large closet built onto the back side of the cabin holding all the gear and batteries. So new batteries don't need to be water proof, but it does get below freezing at times in that space in winter so I think I need self heating batteries. Preferably ones that use incoming solar to run the heating elements (Is that a thing? or do all self heating batteries reserve a bit of power to self heat?).

I am thinking server rack batteries are likely the best option and I'm likely to upgrade the total storage too. Current batteries have theoretical ~17.7KW of useful capacity at 50% discharge. I'm planning to upgrade with more solar panels at some point (1-2 years out) and think perhaps 6 rack batteries all bought at the same time is better than trying to buy fewer now then expand to more in the future? With the current panels ~16-20KW of storage is probably correct, but more shouldn't hurt. Obviously I'm only semi-knowledgeable on this equipment at the moment, but trying to learn fast.

Looking to see what everyone thinks for self heating batteries that might be a good option. The inverter is a Schneider XW+ that can output up to 6.8KW continuous. A Midnight Solar charge controller is feeding power in from the 4KW solar array. There is a small generator also attached that hardly runs (it's set up to be automatic).

Still trying to decide if I want to do the upgrade(s) myself or hire out when it comes time.

Thoughts or ideas?
You are going to get all kinds of opinions on this.

For me rather than individual heating elements on the batteries, I would just put a small infrared heater in the room to keep it above 50 degrees.

Server racks would be faster and easier to install but the cost is significantly higher.

You can buy 304ah cells from 18650 store for $105 or less each (depending on quantity) and that would give you 15kWh per 16s.

So that would be $1800-1900 for a 15kWh vs 1400-1600 for a 5.1kWH server rack.
 
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Insulate the room very well. Then build a battery box to accomdate whatever you choose and insulate that even more. Search around on here, folks have lots of diy ideas. It doesn't need to be real warm, just above 32 for most brands.

Most of the self heating batteries have pretty high wattage use and you cant really control it. They will run the heat based on temp, not pv production. The EG4 was something like 224 watts...
 
Insulate the room very well.
Interestingly, I'm concerned that in summer it will end up too hot for most of the electronics in there. Might have to figure out some sort of in-between level of insulation that can be easily removed for 3-4 months of warm, then replaced for the 8-9months it is not a concern.

Most of the self heating batteries have pretty high wattage use and you cant really control it.
Good to know. That is probably more load than everything else combined for times when I'm not here.

Server racks would be faster and easier to install but the cost is significantly higher.

You can buy 304ah cells
Interesting idea, but I'm not at a level where I'd be comfortable building my own battery as yet.
 
So new batteries don't need to be water proof, but it does get below freezing at times in that space in winter so I think I need self heating batteries.
EG4 just released the indoor PowerPro today, without weatherproofing and with heating.

You inherited a really nice setup overall.

I believe the powerpro has schneider communication, unless they're still working on that. You may have an SCP or Combox that will need upgrading to an InsightHome to use the comms.
 
Good to know. That is probably more load than everything else combined for times when I'm not here.
Some have suggested shutting down completely when leaving, but if arriving to your cabin with temps below freezing they may not turn back on until warm.
 
Most of the LiFePO4 batteries with internal heating will not provide heat unless there is an external charge. The BMS does not draw power from the battery to power the heating pads. The consequence of this is that if the battery gets very cold overnight then it could take quite some time to bring the battery up to 32°F which is the normal threshold for charging. Because of that time to heat, you've lost valuable charging time.

My preference is to keep the batteries above 32°F with an independent system that pulls power from the battery. That's how my system works.

As noted by a number of posts already, insulation is key. I can remove the insulation that surrounds my LiFePO4 batteries.
 
Interestingly, I'm concerned that in summer it will end up too hot for most of the electronics in there. Might have to figure out some sort of in-between level of insulation that can be easily removed for 3-4 months of warm, then replaced for the 8-9months it is not a concern.
The batteries will put off almost no heat, so the battery box can remain insulated year-round and it won't be an issue.
As for the other electronics, I would just use some sort of ventilation that you can open for the summer and close for the winter rather than messing with removing and reinstalling insulation.

Also, I'm assuming that you're talking about upgrading to LiFePO4 (Lithium-Iron-Phosphate, or LFP) batteries and not LiPo (lithium-Polymer) batteries. LFP are very common on the forum because they're safe, easy to work with, and readily available. LiPo is not common for DIY solar power (but not unheard of, and it's pretty common in other applications). You may want to update your post's title.
 
Most of the LiFePO4 batteries with internal heating will not provide heat unless there is an external charge
The Pytes V5 batteries use their own internal power to heat themselves. I just installed four of them in an external enclosure. In the winter my overnight temperatures get down to the 30°F sometimes.
 
Thanks for the responses everyone.

I would just use some sort of ventilation that you can open for the summer and close for the winter
Trying not to poke too many holes in the structure of course. Mice, rats, etc.. are a concern in the area. But might be useful. I have my own temp sensor in there next to the batteries and it can get up into low 80's F on warm days in the summer. Not crazy hot, but then it's only partially insulated right now with the inverter and charge controller putting off decent heat.

My preference is to keep the batteries above 32°F with an independent system that pulls power from the battery.
Full insulation might even achieve the majority of this. I don't monitor continuously, but know that outdoor temps are generally in the low teens and single digits overnight in winter with definite periods well below zero F. That said, due to the inverter and charge controller in there, I've not seen temps fall below about 20F on the coldest nights with only partial insulation of the room. Really I think it's the handful of extreme nights that are the issue if I insulate the room better.

upgrading to LiFePO4
Yes. kinda a typo on my part.

Pytes V5 batteries
I know that some professional installers like Pytes. Of course nearly never see them on most consumer selling sites. Seems like a nice battery, but a few hundred more than most competitors per 5KW battery.
EG4 just released the indoor PowerPro today
Intriguing option. Cheaper than the outdoor version, could do 2 of those for a touch less than most server rack batt's, but no idea how I'd move those into place at nearly 300lbs each. Somewhat odd how capacity fits in-between 5 or 6 rack batteries. Also not sure what supply of the new batteries is going to look like; The Lead Acid batts are giving less capacity so I'm thinking sooner than later this late spring/summer time frame.
 
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Trophy server rack batteries have internal heaters. Seems like a small fan inside the room to even out the temp. Like an 80mm 12v fan or similar. Run all the time. A 4" duct fan hooked to a dryer duct with flap and screen to blow out mounted high. Hook that through a common mercury switch thermostat.

Insulate the heck out of the room.

The inverter should put off enough heat most of the time. Keep things simple and they don't break as easy.
 
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