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Excellent work.
Thank you so much for your help, you have no idea how much I appreciate it.

I have a future project coming up for an offgrid eco friendly glamping site. Do you have any recommendations in terms of inverters to use for this project? just looking to better and consolidate the ammount of space my current system takes.
 
Good to put 240V loads on the first panel (up to 2x 6kW = 12kW or whatever inverters can deliver), and limit second panel to 3kW of loads on one 120V leg + 3kW of loads on other. That prevents overloading transformer.
My transformer is 5kw, would it be a good idea to follow this suggestion on the attached picture to prevent transformer failure in the event the transformer gets overloaded? if so what size breaker should replace those terminals?
 

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Hey I just read your oringial post again... those growatt inverters are not for the US market. They have a ground neutral bond on one end, not correct for split phase. I think there's a screw in the chassis that needs to be removed. Check will prowse youtube for that screw. It was all the rage about 2 years ago.....

More info: If your autoformer were to fail or pop it's breaker, you would apply 240v to all your 120v appliances... is it worth it? A wife flipping the wrong breaker for example could cause the microwave and fridge to get fried.... is it worth it?

Thanks for this, this really helped get right to the problem of things and fix it.
Thanks for the compliment on my girl, shes growing way too fast, soon she wont be little anymore.
 
Turn it off & go back to the design phase & post your proposed design here for feedback.
Don't try to resolve the current setup until you know what safe looks like.
There's some horrible advice here and you could be one fault/action away from a lethal situation.
 
Thank you so much for your help, you have no idea how much I appreciate it.

I have a future project coming up for an offgrid eco friendly glamping site. Do you have any recommendations in terms of inverters to use for this project? just looking to better and consolidate the ammount of space my current system takes.
For a simple split-phase system that won't break your wallet.
The EG4 6Kxp has been very popular with the members.
 
My transformer is 5kw, would it be a good idea to follow this suggestion on the attached picture to prevent transformer failure in the event the transformer gets overloaded? if so what size breaker should replace those terminals?

I’ve lost the thread of how you have everything connected. Protecting the autotransformer is good, but then all your loads should come from the autotransformer, when that breaker trips you lose your neutral.

Follow the manufacturer’s recommendation for the breaker. Or Ohms Law, if you know what you are doing. (Hint, use the mfr number).
 
Turn it off & go back to the design phase & post your proposed design here for feedback.
Don't try to resolve the current setup until you know what safe looks like.
There's some horrible advice here and you could be one fault/action away from a lethal situation.
This!
 
My transformer is 5kw, would it be a good idea to follow this suggestion on the attached picture to prevent transformer failure in the event the transformer gets overloaded? if so what size breaker should replace those terminals?
You already have a breaker ahead of the transformer. Which is better than what the picture recommends. But , I would change it to a 25a , instead of the 30a.
To match the transformer output rating.
As long as you make an attempt to balance your 120v loads, you should be fine.
 
You should probably start a separate thread for autotransformer use. This thread is long, and about safety issue.

My transformer is 5kw, would it be a good idea to follow this suggestion on the attached picture to prevent transformer failure in the event the transformer gets overloaded? if so what size breaker should replace those terminals?

"5kw", you say. Does the documentation say what maximum imbalance between L1 and L2 is allowed?

You already have a breaker ahead of the transformer. Which is better than what the picture recommends.

Either should work. If there is a breaker panel feeding it, breaker could go there. If someone fed directly from inverter, then DIN rail breaker inside autotransformer box works.

But , I would change it to a 25a , instead of the 30a.
To match the transformer output rating.

This is where I disagree. Tim is a professional in the field of electrical work, but I disagree that the inverter would be protected with that large a breaker.

25A x 240V = 6000W
6000W x 80% = 4800W continuous.

If transformer could handle 5kW, I would agree. The data sheet may say 5kW, but it isn't true. Focus on what "imbalance" it says is allowed, which means neutral current.
But if you put 4800W 120V load on one leg, 4800W / 120V = 40A.

The data sheet I saw said max 3000W imbalance. 3000W / 120V = 25A max neutral current. Not 50A, not 40A.
25A x 120V = 3000W. 3000W / 120V = 12.5A. There is only 12.5A flowing through L1 winding of transformer, and only 12.5A flowing through L2 of transformer. That's why I said earlier that OCP needed to be 12.5A. Maybe 15A 2-pole breaker, which not only disconnects transformer but also disconnects all loads to protect from lost neutral.

To protect the transformer, I say it needs to either protect neutral to 25A max (could go 30A or so to allow 25A continuous), or have temperature sensor. When the protection trips, it has to turn off L1/L2 power into the transformer and disconnect L1/L2 from the load panel as well. This is what Victron did - either 32A or 100A 2-pole breaker, and a temperature sensor wired to a remote trip "breaker" ganged to that 2-pole breaker.

The deal is, 240V loads and a combination of 120V loads on L1/L2 could be powered directly from inverters without any current through the transformer. Imbalanced loads produce current through the transformer.

As long as you make an attempt to balance your 120v loads, you should be fine.

As long as you put no more than 25A on either L1 or L2 after the transformer you should be fine.

However, if you protect with 12.5A or 15A breaker like I suggest, you could only have one of the two 25A loads on at any time. If both 25A loads are on (one on L1, one on L2), that would trip the breaker.

A protection scheme like Victron designed is needed.
 
You should probably start a separate thread for autotransformer use. This thread is long, and about safety issue.



"5kw", you say. Does the documentation say what maximum imbalance between L1 and L2 is allowed?



Either should work. If there is a breaker panel feeding it, breaker could go there. If someone fed directly from inverter, then DIN rail breaker inside autotransformer box works.



This is where I disagree. Tim is a professional in the field of electrical work, but I disagree that the inverter would be protected with that large a breaker.

25A x 240V = 6000W
6000W x 80% = 4800W continuous.

If transformer could handle 5kW, I would agree. The data sheet may say 5kW, but it isn't true. Focus on what "imbalance" it says is allowed, which means neutral current.
But if you put 4800W 120V load on one leg, 4800W / 120V = 40A.

The data sheet I saw said max 3000W imbalance. 3000W / 120V = 25A max neutral current. Not 50A, not 40A.
25A x 120V = 3000W. 3000W / 120V = 12.5A. There is only 12.5A flowing through L1 winding of transformer, and only 12.5A flowing through L2 of transformer. That's why I said earlier that OCP needed to be 12.5A. Maybe 15A 2-pole breaker, which not only disconnects transformer but also disconnects all loads to protect from lost neutral.

To protect the transformer, I say it needs to either protect neutral to 25A max (could go 30A or so to allow 25A continuous), or have temperature sensor. When the protection trips, it has to turn off L1/L2 power into the transformer and disconnect L1/L2 from the load panel as well. This is what Victron did - either 32A or 100A 2-pole breaker, and a temperature sensor wired to a remote trip "breaker" ganged to that 2-pole breaker.

The deal is, 240V loads and a combination of 120V loads on L1/L2 could be powered directly from inverters without any current through the transformer. Imbalanced loads produce current through the transformer.



As long as you put no more than 25A on either L1 or L2 after the transformer you should be fine.

However, if you protect with 12.5A or 15A breaker like I suggest, you could only have one of the two 25A loads on at any time. If both 25A loads are on (one on L1, one on L2), that would trip the breaker.

A protection scheme like Victron designed is needed.
It gets complicated really quickly, and my contention is that instead of putting in breakers to protect the undersized auto transformer, you should have a properly sized auto transformer or a
split phase inverter that won’t trip out. Depending on the breakers to do the right thing when you’ve overloaded the auto transformer just seems to be going af it backwards.
 
You should probably start a separate thread for autotransformer use. This thread is long, and about safety issue.



"5kw", you say. Does the documentation say what maximum imbalance between L1 and L2 is allowed?



Either should work. If there is a breaker panel feeding it, breaker could go there. If someone fed directly from inverter, then DIN rail breaker inside autotransformer box works.



This is where I disagree. Tim is a professional in the field of electrical work, but I disagree that the inverter would be protected with that large a breaker.

25A x 240V = 6000W
6000W x 80% = 4800W continuous.

If transformer could handle 5kW, I would agree. The data sheet may say 5kW, but it isn't true. Focus on what "imbalance" it says is allowed, which means neutral current.
But if you put 4800W 120V load on one leg, 4800W / 120V = 40A.

The data sheet I saw said max 3000W imbalance. 3000W / 120V = 25A max neutral current. Not 50A, not 40A.
25A x 120V = 3000W. 3000W / 120V = 12.5A. There is only 12.5A flowing through L1 winding of transformer, and only 12.5A flowing through L2 of transformer. That's why I said earlier that OCP needed to be 12.5A. Maybe 15A 2-pole breaker, which not only disconnects transformer but also disconnects all loads to protect from lost neutral.

To protect the transformer, I say it needs to either protect neutral to 25A max (could go 30A or so to allow 25A continuous), or have temperature sensor. When the protection trips, it has to turn off L1/L2 power into the transformer and disconnect L1/L2 from the load panel as well. This is what Victron did - either 32A or 100A 2-pole breaker, and a temperature sensor wired to a remote trip "breaker" ganged to that 2-pole breaker.

The deal is, 240V loads and a combination of 120V loads on L1/L2 could be powered directly from inverters without any current through the transformer. Imbalanced loads produce current through the transformer.



As long as you put no more than 25A on either L1 or L2 after the transformer you should be fine.

However, if you protect with 12.5A or 15A breaker like I suggest, you could only have one of the two 25A loads on at any time. If both 25A loads are on (one on L1, one on L2), that would trip the breaker.

A protection scheme like Victron designed is needed.
The auto transformer says it can handle a MAX IMBALANCE of 3000W it does not say it cannot handle over 12.5A on either leg…

Imbalance only occurs when one leg is loaded and the other is not.

The auto transformer will be fine with 25A breaker. Using a 12.5A breaker severely limits what loads can be used…
 
So datasheet says auto transformer weighs 34.3 lbs. Assuming enclosure weighs 10 lbs then transformer itself is ~25 lbs. A 6kVA induction rated transformer inside Xantrex XW6048 weights 75 lbs or 80 watts / lb. Applying this ratio to Growatt auto transformer we get 80*25=2000w equivalent mass rating for induction only mode of operation. A center tapped auto transformer will convert half of imbalance current via induction and pass half via conduction. So max imbalance can be 2kW * 2 = 4kW. But toroidal transformer in XW6048 is more efficient vs. Growatt's E-core type so it's safe to assume Growatt's 3kW max imbalance rating is correct. That gives us 25A max current on neutral which will be reached with only 12.5A across it. So @Hedges is correct on this one. Growatt should have called this a 3kVA auto transformer and not 5kVa.
 
The auto transformer says it can handle a MAX IMBALANCE of 3000W it does not say it cannot handle over 12.5A on either leg…

Imbalance of 3000W means 25A difference between L1 and L2 120V.
That means 25A on N. Which means 12.5A on L1 + 12.5A on L2. Kirchhoff's current law; two windings from L1 & L2 plus N tap meet at a node.

Each of the windings can only handle 12.5A
And/or the core can only transfer 1500VA.
1500VA is provided to N by current conducted through one winding, and 1500VA is magnetically coupled from that winding to the other, shoving 1500VA of current through second winding.

Imbalance only occurs when one leg is loaded and the other is not.

True.

The auto transformer will be fine with 25A breaker.

Not if 6000W imbalance is applied.

Using a 12.5A breaker severely limits what loads can be used…

True.

What you really want is a 25A breaker pole with autotransformer centertap N feeding through it,
ganged two 63A poles (full current from 2x 6000W 240V inverters x 1.25)

If N gets overloaded with > 25A, it trips the 63A poles and disconnects both inverters from a 120/240V loads panel.

Or 12.5A breaker pole(s) on one or both of L1/L2 of auto-transformer, ganged to the two 63A poles.

Or a temperature sensor on auto-transformer which remote trips the two 63A poles. That's Victron's design.
 
Or just get the proper equipment designed and manufactured for the country of use. Anything else is just a mess.
Band aiding a fuck up when it is safety critical is a dumb thing to do.
 
Or just get the proper equipment designed and manufactured for the country of use. Anything else is just a mess.
Band aiding a fuck up when it is safety critical is a dumb thing to do.
It's not the simplest setup. But there's nothing wrong with it, if done correctly.
Turning 240v single phase into split-phase is very common in this country.
There are literally tens of thousands of installations across the country.
In fact every single service in the world involves transformers.
I do believe that it is above most diyer's skill level. Which is why I don't recommend it to anyone here, anymore. But, I don't mind helping people who have already purchased it.
 
I agree with you 100% Tim, I am more than capable of pulling it off safely but I decided it absolutely was not worth it.
It became a non-issue when I decided to build a new house and make it 100% solar from day one, permits and inspections all the way.
 
If you remember.
I gave you current readings on my autotransformer quite a while back.
They were not what you expected.
I try not to work from theory.
...
Neutral will never carry more than either L1 or L2.
I can only trust the actual measurements.

I agree measurements are most important, "ground truth".
Theory can be entirely wrong.

I just did measurements to back my theory:


Please link your measurements there, I can't remember where they are.

Once we work out how these animals actually behave and how to protect them, we can give OP our suggestions.
 
If there was a better value out there, I might have went a different way.
But there wasn't. And as far as I know, there still isn't.
 
If there was a better value out there, I might have went a different way.
But there wasn't. And as far as I know, there still isn't.
I had a quote for about $1500 shipped for an actual dry transformer,brand new, 200A, 480/240 with CT output. I was hunting commercial tear downs to see if I could haul one away, and I found one "nice priced" across town, but I backed off, I didn't have a good place to put it. Supposedly they are like 95% efficient, but they weigh something ridiculous, and are not all that small. Most of the stuff is 3-phase, but from time to time they get put in as a boost for crappy voltage, or to smooth power curves. For those who've never looked, they are normally green or grey boxes about 24x24x30 with a vent on the top. They have a bunch of different input and output taps and a matrix chart so you can have (say) a 208 feed that gets you 240 with a center tap, split phase out... Not really sure If I wanted to go that deep in the weeds, with a big heavy box of wire.

I never did get a definitive answer on whether it would help with the HVAC surge, then picked up the EG4 18KPV 's (tim). Auto-transformers pass-thru the 240, and would appear to simply have a CT winding. The Victron has very lopsided output, I was not impressed, and the 240v/100A unit wiring made dropping #2 in it more than an ordeal, it was ridiculous. I'm glad to be rid of all that stuff. KISS and all that.
 
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