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“Mixed battery chems” or separate system

MichaelW1212

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Joined
Apr 23, 2024
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Australia
Hey guys new member here but not a new diyer, about a year ago I built my grid tie system with 1400$ worth of lithium, I started a new job about a month ago and just found about 6 pallets full 2v 223ah lead acid batteries that work PAYS to dump, these get habitually replaced every 2 years due to legislation from the government and nearly all are great condition.

Could I add these to my system in some way? I know we shouldn’t mix chems but I was thinking more of two dc-dc chargers as a ghetto way to atleast get something seeing as I could literally have a free battery bank the size of a truck should I want to.
Is there anything I need to think about in regards to getting 12s to make 24v (that’s what my inverter runs).
Thanks guys.
 
make them a separate bank with separate SCC and preferably powering a separate inverter. can deffinitely use them but as charging requirements are different from lithium it needs to be a separate system for best results.
 
However there have been multiple people that have combined them. Due to the voltage profiles the Li batts gets mostly drained first then the lead starts carrying the load.

So not optimal, but it seems to work, from what they report. I have no personal experience in this.
 
However there have been multiple people that have combined them. Due to the voltage profiles the Li batts gets mostly drained first then the lead starts carrying the load.
the reason I would run them separate is that you are either over charging the lithiums, trusting the BMS to disconnect, or you are short charging the AGM's... AGM's take a long absorb after the bulk. most lithium systems shut charging off as soon as xx.xx volt is reached so for lithium you either overcharge them, or you undercharge the AGM's
 
make them a separate bank with separate SCC and preferably powering a separate inverter. can deffinitely use them but as charging requirements are different from lithium it needs to be a separate system for best results.
The problems is my SCC is grid tie and running appliances using a semi hardwired setup, I’ll have a look around and unless I get a bright idea I might just leave them as I’d need 24 of them to get the same AH as my 2 light and small LI batteries. Thanks for your input guys, this place is awesome!
 
How big is your lithium battery? It sounds like you have enough 2V batteries for a huge bank, likely dwarfing your current bank. And you may have a endless supply.

If this is the case, i'd look at switching to lead acid for your main system and perhaps use your lithium in a different use/system/backup.

The cost and effort of mixing doesn't seem to make sense from what i understand about your equipment.
 
Hey guys new member here but not a new diyer, about a year ago I built my grid tie system with 1400$ worth of lithium, I started a new job about a month ago and just found about 6 pallets full 2v 223ah lead acid batteries that work PAYS to dump, these get habitually replaced every 2 years due to legislation from the government and nearly all are great condition.

Could I add these to my system in some way? I know we shouldn’t mix chems but I was thinking more of two dc-dc chargers as a ghetto way to atleast get something seeing as I could literally have a free battery bank the size of a trucrunk should I want to.
Is there anything I need to think about in regards to getting 12s to make 24v (that’s what my inverter runs).
Thanks guys.
I am from a different camp so to speak. I have been running a hybrid FLA/LFP system for about five years now. I would suggest that you leave your LFP bank connected to the charging sources and connect the loads to your FLA bank. The LFP will soak up the charge much faster then it could slow charge the FLA bank during the night. To be fair I have not played with grid tied systems or what it would take to make it work. Check electrolyte levels to decide if or how often to equalize the FLA bank.
 
Could I add these to my system in some way?
I run a hybrid LiFePO4 and SLA battery so it is possible. However it depends on few things.

Objectives?
Type of lead acid battery and the charge voltage specs? They differ depending on the lead acid battery type.
Relative capacity of batteries?
What is charging them?

In my case the SLA (~400 Ah) is my backup reserve capacity (and is what I had to begin with for power outage backup), and so they sit at float most of the time. The LiFePO4 (300 Ah) I added later on to do daily cycling. Nominally that's ~35 kWh of battery. I confine daily discharge to no more than the nominal capacity of the LiFePO4 only, i.e. 15 kWh (with 20 kWh / 35 kWh total being a total pack SOC of 57%).

Drawing down SOC lower than that would only occur during an extended power outage.

When discharging from 100% SOC, the LiFePO4 does all the work, with a little energy also being transferred into the SLA.

As LiFePO4's SOC falls to ~23% (total pack SOC ~67%), then the SLA starts to contribute some of the energy, and when LiFePO4 SOC falls to 10% then the SLA is doing most of the work, even supplying some charge into the LiFePO4 and keeping them from reaching a cut off voltage.

Here's some example charts of a test I did recently. This was a discharge during a power outage which started at 9AM, ending a little before 1PM. At the start of the outage the LiFePO4 batteries only had ~ 30% SOC (pack SOC 70%). Battery had discharged the night before and had received a little charge in the morning prior to the outage.

This chart shows the BMS SOC readings for my three LiFePO4 batteries, as well as the total hybrid pack voltage during this period of discharge. The lower chart shows the load (and pack voltage again for reference). Note the heavier loads towards the back end of the outage (people came home and started using stuff).

ok6sw8E.png


And this is the voltage and SOC for the combined hybrid pack which fell to 57% (a nominal 15 kWh of discharge):

Screen Shot 2024-04-25 at 8.04.00 am.png

The below chart is again the same time period and shows the relative proportions of the power being supplied by the SLA (orange as that's the colour of my SLA batteries) and LiFePO4 (grey), again with the pack voltage for reference:

YJ7iJs3.png


Can see how the LiFePO4 does by far most of the work but as the pack voltage drops into the 51.x range the SLA begins to contribute, just a little to begin with but increasingly so as voltage drops.

With pack voltage dropping into the 49.x range the SLA eventually does the bulk of the work. And indeed under some loads it is supplying some energy back to the LiFePO4. If you look back at the first chart, note how the LiFePO4 SOC plateaus at ~8%, even though the hybrid pack is still discharging. In my case the SLA gives the LiFePO4 a "soft landing".

In terms of absolute energy flow, below shows the 5-min energy interval contributions by each:

Screen Shot 2024-04-25 at 8.25.34 am.png

So can it work?

Yes, however it requires a lot of ducks lined up in a row in order to be worthwhile. And the SLA need to be in very good condition, else self discharge will end up being costly. Appropriate battery safety and protection measures are required.

Would I use such a set up if starting from scratch? No.

In my case the SLA was already there, in good condition and has compatible charge voltages so I chose to try it out and it's working well for me. It's purpose is outage backup only but as it turns out it also helps the LiFePO4 out. I do not propose to discharge the hybrid pack beyond this level, excepting when required for long grid outages.

I charge up to 56.4 V and that works well for both chemistries based on the specifications of each specific battery. FLA would likely require too high a voltage for my comfort, and making that work would require a means to automatically disconnect the LiFePO4 in order to fully charge the FLA, and reconnect on the way back down. Solutions exist but that involves spending money which might otherwise just go towards more LiFePO4 instead.

In your case I'd be inclined to sell the lead and just get more LiFePO4.
 
I run a hybrid LiFePO4 and SLA battery so it is possible. However it depends on few things.

Objectives?
Type of lead acid battery and the charge voltage specs? They differ depending on the lead acid battery type.
Relative capacity of batteries?
What is charging them?

In my case the SLA (~400 Ah) is my backup reserve capacity (and is what I had to begin with for power outage backup), and so they sit at float most of the time. The LiFePO4 (300 Ah) I added later on to do daily cycling. Nominally that's ~35 kWh of battery. I confine daily discharge to no more than the nominal capacity of the LiFePO4 only, i.e. 15 kWh (with 20 kWh / 35 kWh total being a total pack SOC of 57%).

Drawing down SOC lower than that would only occur during an extended power outage.

When discharging from 100% SOC, the LiFePO4 does all the work, with a little energy also being transferred into the SLA.

As LiFePO4's SOC falls to ~23% (total pack SOC ~67%), then the SLA starts to contribute some of the energy, and when LiFePO4 SOC falls to 10% then the SLA is doing most of the work, even supplying some charge into the LiFePO4 and keeping them from reaching a cut off voltage.

Here's some example charts of a test I did recently. This was a discharge during a power outage which started at 9AM, ending a little before 1PM. At the start of the outage the LiFePO4 batteries only had ~ 30% SOC (pack SOC 70%). Battery had discharged the night before and had received a little charge in the morning prior to the outage.

This chart shows the BMS SOC readings for my three LiFePO4 batteries, as well as the total hybrid pack voltage during this period of discharge. The lower chart shows the load (and pack voltage again for reference). Note the heavier loads towards the back end of the outage (people came home and started using stuff).

ok6sw8E.png


And this is the voltage and SOC for the combined hybrid pack which fell to 57% (a nominal 15 kWh of discharge):

View attachment 211406

The below chart is again the same time period and shows the relative proportions of the power being supplied by the SLA (orange as that's the colour of my SLA batteries) and LiFePO4 (grey), again with the pack voltage for reference:

YJ7iJs3.png


Can see how the LiFePO4 does by far most of the work but as the pack voltage drops into the 51.x range the SLA begins to contribute, just a little to begin with but increasingly so as voltage drops.

With pack voltage dropping into the 49.x range the SLA eventually does the bulk of the work. And indeed under some loads it is supplying some energy back to the LiFePO4. If you look back at the first chart, note how the LiFePO4 SOC plateaus at ~8%, even though the hybrid pack is still discharging. In my case the SLA gives the LiFePO4 a "soft landing".

In terms of absolute energy flow, below shows the 5-min energy interval contributions by each:

View attachment 211405

So can it work?

Yes, however it requires a lot of ducks lined up in a row in order to be worthwhile. And the SLA need to be in very good condition, else self discharge will end up being costly. Appropriate battery safety and protection measures are required.

Would I use such a set up if starting from scratch? No.

In my case the SLA was already there, in good condition and has compatible charge voltages so I chose to try it out and it's working well for me. It's purpose is outage backup only but as it turns out it also helps the LiFePO4 out. I do not propose to discharge the hybrid pack beyond this level, excepting when required for long grid outages.

I charge up to 56.4 V and that works well for both chemistries based on the specifications of each specific battery. FLA would likely require too high a voltage for my comfort, and making that work would require a means to automatically disconnect the LiFePO4 in order to fully charge the FLA, and reconnect on the way back down. Solutions exist but that involves spending money which might otherwise just go towards more LiFePO4 instead.

In your case I'd be inclined to sell the lead and just get more LiFePO4.
Thanks heaps for that awesome info mate, I’m not going to lie, a fair bit of that went over my head.
But I think you’re right, I’ll likely stick to one type and sell the other to fund the type I stick with.
 
Thanks heaps for that awesome info mate, I’m not going to lie, a fair bit of that went over my head.
But I think you’re right, I’ll likely stick to one type and sell the other to fund the type I stick with.
Watt matters Sussed this all out over a period of time, guarantee it was not easy at first, but if you have FLA it seem possible.
 
How big is your lithium battery? It sounds like you have enough 2V batteries for a huge bank, likely dwarfing your current bank. And you may have a endless supply.

If this is the case, i'd look at switching to lead acid for your main system and perhaps use your lithium in a different use/system/backup.

The cost and effort of mixing doesn't seem to make sense from what i understand about your equipment.
I’ve got access to about 6 pallet loads at a guess, 1000+AH every 2 years.
Problem being is being 2v and 223AHcells they aren’t exactly a small footprint, I’ll do a bit of math and see what it would look like for size and wiring costs to convert to sla vs selling them.
 
I’ve got access to about 6 pallet loads at a guess, 1000+AH every 2 years.
People will buy them. There will be die hard off-grid lead acid set ups using 2V cells who need either more or replacement capacity.
At worst they have scrap value, roughly $0.50 per kg of battery. Metal recyclers will take them.
 
Y
People will buy them. There will be die hard off-grid lead acid set ups using 2V cells who need either more or replacement capacity.
At worst they have scrap value, roughly $0.50 per kg of battery. Metal recyclers will take them
Yeah I’ll probably do that and see if I can fund another two LI-ION batteries and after that I’ll likely just give them away, the more of us there are, the better!
I know this is a mostly US based site but if they’re are any central Queenslanders interested I’ll probably sell them at 20$ each for members and their mates.
 
Y

Yeah I’ll probably do that and see if I can fund another two LI-ION batteries and after that I’ll likely just give them away, the more of us there are, the better!
I know this is a mostly US based site but if they’re are any central Queenslanders interested I’ll probably sell them at 20$ each for members and their mates.
You should put an ad in the batteries for sale section here. Title with location a big plus.
 
So after going through the other pallets I’ll be selling off my lithium and using SLA as there’s way way way more 12v 100ah batteries all yuasa uxf100-12fs last night I loaded over 800kg of them half for my bank and half for my old man that wants to get into this life aswell, my back hurts so much😂
 
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