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House burned down

only 1 cell went short may not be what happened
True, but I would think that would be a very small probability without an outside event.
As one cell goes short and gets hot then neighbor cells will do the same after some time.
I have been using lithium batteries for a long time, reclaimed good cells in dead laptop packs, wired 14s12P lithium ion packs, I had 3 of these packs at the same time for a while. That makes 504 little bombs waiting to go off, all of which were of very questionable health. I have seen cells drag a bank of 14 down to a bad SOC. Never did I think that one cell could yank so much current from the parallel neighbors. I still dont.

Why is there not a method to stop this from happening in ebike battery packs? They all are 6-10 parallel.
Do EV batteries that use cobalt have anything to mitigate this supposed huge risk? They are like 200 in parallel. Should do the calcs on that bomb!

I really want to know if this is a thing? I never heard of this in Li Ion cells, for the 15 years Ive been using them in parallel. and I never had a problem.
 
As one cell goes short and gets hot then neighbor cells will do the same after some time. A cascading failure.
I think this absolutely applies to Lithium cobalt. In a direct short event.
I have seen other pictures of Lifepo4 diy batteries go off and the adjacent cells were still very much unburden.
The cell just roasted for a couple hours.
 
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I meant to say as one cell catches fire it will set fire to adjacent cells due to heat generated.
 
I meant to say as one cell catches fire it will set fire to adjacent cells due to heat generated.
With all the nasty, dog meat, used laptop batteries I have reclaimed, There was never a battery that I had ever seen that self discharged in less than 4 days. That was the worst I saw. Warm to the touch the entire time. I just cant see this random lifepo4 getting a short bad enough from dendrite growth to do this damage. Yes, batteries in parallel would certainly feed the self discharging one, but I still dont think that would do it as it would be no hotter that it was, but it would be hot for longer.
 
I just cant see this random lifePo getting a short bad enough from dendrite growth to do this damage.
Not from dendrites but from possible over compression of small area and damage to internal separator membrane causing a short. OPs previous cells leaked and that's a good clue. Contamination during manufacture could also be possible.
 
Not from dendrites but from possible over compression of small area and damage to internal separator membrane causing a short. OPs previous cells leaked and that's a good clue. Contamination during manufacture could also be possible.
Got it. That could happen.
 
The reason for the following very detailed calculation is to recognize things that are not obvious at first. Of course, after 27 pages of speculation, it's just another one. I apologize in advance for the jumble of numbers.

Assumption: one of the 116 cells has a dendrite breakthrough - nearly shorted

condensed summary mOhm:
cell resistance 0.317
48 V bank: 5.8
six 48V banks: 0.966
45V bank: 5.8 but more
Maximum possible current: 443A

Detailed calculating
of R_Ohmic foreach Cell with its bus bar:
- Cell resistance 4 years old -condition unknown estimated: 0.3 milliohms.
- Each cell terminal compression connection will have 0.05 milliohms of compression contact resistance of approximately 0.05+0.05 milliohms.
- Busbar: 2mm x 20mm x 70mm Nickel plated cooper core is about 0.07milliohms.
(Nickel plating increases the busbar resistance by about 20%)
see left in picture:
https://diysolarforum.com/attachments/good-battery-connecitons-png.135622/
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/raw-cell-busbar-ampacity.80414/#post-1032751
1. Result for one cell : 0.3+0.05+0.05+0.07 =0.317 milliohms.

16 cells: 16 x 0.317 milliohms = 5,072 milliohms
2 x 1,2m 70mm2 wire with cabel lug : 0.348 milliohms
Megafuse350 A Littelfuse resistance 0,13 milliohms
https://www.littelfuse.com/media?re...8&filename=littelfuse-datasheet-mega+32v-r2.5
Fuse holder compression contact resistance and steel : ca 0.25 milliohms
2. Result one 48V bank with 16 cells and 2 x 1,2 m wire and fuse with holder: 5,072+0,348+0.13+0.25= 5.8 milliohms

3. Result of 6 parallel 48V banks 5,8 milliohms : 6 = 0.966 milliohms

4. Result one 45 V bank with 16 cells (one cell 0V assumed nearly 0 ohms shorted) and 2 x 1,2 m wire and fuse with holder: 5,072+0,348+0.13+0.25 = 5.8 milliohms (but more)

Now we should see that the six currents of 6 parallel 48V banks are feeding one 45V bank. The difference is only 3 V and nothing else.

Under these conditions, an absolut maximum current of (48V-45V) 3V !!! /(0.966+5,8 milliohms) = 443A through this one bank and its fuse is possible. 73,88A in each of the 6 other banks.

But the real current could be easely in the 264A....349A Range. E.g. the dendrite resistance in the shorted cell are much more higher than 0 Ohm. 349A x (0.13 + 0.25 milliohm) of the Megafuse and holder = 0.132V. The power consumption and heat dissipation of the red glowing fuse in its holder are now 0.132V x 349A= 46.5 Watt for a very very long time. (continous current)

Conclusion:
See Datasheet above: At a room temperatur of 20C the the maximum permissible continuous current of this 350A fuse is 263A. The range 263A ....349A for this is not allowed, as it is dangerous due to its continous heat dissipation. (greater 350A is allowed because the fuse will break after hours.)

It is clear to me that other conceivable errors can lead to significantly higher currents that would absolutely overwhelm the fuse. E.g.: the internal cell short circuit, which cannot be prevented by any external measure, can also lead to a very undesirable causal chain; enormous heat, hydrogen !!!, gas development, heating of neighboring cells, etc...

Thanks - great forum


You calculations are considerably different than mine.

Add in 2/0 wire with a 58v Mega fuse at 1.2 meters away. Calculate the temperature of tha fuse with the current going through it.

I think you calculation of max current is low. There are 7 strings of batteries 7p16s of 280a EVE cells, you can lookup the resistance and the voltage drop per cell is 3.4v. So when a cell shorts the resistance drops to zero or close.

See this post for the numbers I used, some assumptions there of 2 meters verse the OP saying 1.2 meters. I assumed either the current would be 125amps per string because the other fuses didn't blow or there was a short period where the strings were putting out max by ohms law of 1200ish amps for a short period.

The the fuse 58v mega 125amp has a time verse current curve of .1s to 2s. Seems to me The weak link was the fuse that blew because of the amount of current through it and the fact that resistance raises as heat goes up, so it would cascade quickly.

I think ultimately it was several thousand amps for a fraction of a second and it arced through the Mega fuse that had 2000 amps AIC.

 
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I don't think that it was simply one cell went to zero and caused all that. As pointed out, a 3(ish) volt differential wouldn't sustain an arc, regardless of amps.
More cells blowing out? Perhaps.
But what data we do have shows some heavy loading occurring right before things went south.
Maybe it was a combination of things. A perfect storm, so to speak.

At any rate, I don't think we'll ever figure it out (as much as I wish we could) just because we do not have enough data.
 
I can't wrap my mind around arcing a fuse at 3v (One shorted cell)


It isn't about the voltage so much as the reduced resistance of the pack. The reduced resistace means the othe packs will dump current into the reduced pack.
 
It isn't about the voltage so much as the reduced resistance of the pack. The reduced resistace means the othe packs will dump current into the reduced pack.
BUT 3V difference isn't going to sustain an arc across the the fuse. Even if you were dumping 500A, that's still only at 3V and the mega should never have a problem breaking that at only a 3V potential difference.
 
Outside of the obvious cost, would there be any detriment to mixing fuse types in parallel? Eg possibly fastest blowing on side of battery followed by a slower blowing? MRBF then class T?
 
The fuse is seeing 48V nominal; its circuit path is back to the negative. The 3V delta is really just across the failed string.

But the other 6 strings now see that shorted battery string as a load.

The voltage may start an arc but the current will maintain it over a longer distance. Look for a youtube video where someone is laying a screwdriver across a 12v car battery. He never actually touches the other post and then he draws the arc out what looks like 4 to 6 inches.

As the fuse blows there is a very small gap and the arc starts. As the fuse element draws back and melt the arc extinguishes under normal curcumstances. With high current even a low voltage can keep that arc going.

The class T has what appears to be sand in it that fills in the gaps when the fuse elements burn away. So now the arc has to blow through the sand to keep going. Just a theory but it may even fuse some of that sand material into glass.

If anyone has blown class t fuses around would be interesting to sift and see what is left?
 
If anyone has blown class t fuses around would be interesting to sift and see what is left?
I've only seen a Class K tested at 200kA AC. With them, the way they are ribbed it burns through in multiple places and then springs apart a little in the process. The sand in the immediate vicinity of the metal is all mixed granuals, but calling it glass is a good question.
 
Do EV batteries that use cobalt have anything to mitigate this supposed huge risk?
I am familiar with some Tesla packs and a Nissan Leaf pack. Tesla uses thin wires to parallel the individual cells. They also use utumescent insulation between the cells which expands when hot and offers some fire retardent characteristics. Water cooling with lots of temperature sensors and a sophisticated battery management system all reduce the risk. There have been fires but those have mostly been a result of a collision which compromises the pack.
The Nissan pack is air cooled and uses pouch cells in a 2P2S metal module and these modules are in series for the Nissan pack.
 
I am familiar with some Tesla packs and a Nissan Leaf pack. Tesla uses thin wires to parallel the individual cells. They also use utumescent insulation between the cells which expands when hot and offers some fire retardent characteristics. Water cooling with lots of temperature sensors and a sophisticated battery management system all reduce the risk. There have been fires but those have mostly been a result of a collision which compromises the pack.
The Nissan pack is air cooled and uses pouch cells in a 2P2S metal module and these modules are in series for the Nissan pack.
I believe the Tesla packs also have replaceable pyro disconnects in case of critical failures.
 
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