What do y'all think of this sentiment:

Excerpt from a post on another solar forum:

My feeling is that until you learn with a solid, established tech like lead acid, it's best to learn one thing at a time. Learning with a "cheap set of $220" batteries, that may be stinky sometimes as they are charging hard, is a lot better than discovering the $2,500 Li-Ion battery is bulging and the BMS has a blinking red light.
You need to first learn how to manage low power living, and when that is settled in a year or two, then switch to the pricey Li-Ion battery. Currently, there is no easy plug-n-play interaction between a battery and a charge controller and a inverter. you have to buy them as a "black box kit" all in one, and trust the box to do all the magic properly.
Li-Ion batteries don't often have a problem but when they do, deadly toxic fumes are released. If they get to a point where they are burning, there is really no way to put them out, and all will be ruined. Hopefully, in another year, things will be much more settled and I'll feel better about them, but currently, they are "expert use only", IMHO.

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I tend to think its a sound and prudent warning, but that the risks are being way overstated and the 'expert only' label is overly cautious. But then again I've never built a battery bank or an electrical system, and I am inclined to dive headfirst into new things and occasionally bite off more than I can chew.

I can only run as many experiments simultaneously as I have bench space; other bits an bobs get file into cardboard boxes to await bench space.
In other words, I suspect whatever works best for someone is the way they should do it.

Sounds like one if those guys just psychologically against lithium first of all. Lifepo4 doesnt blow up nor costs anywhere near $2500. As soon as you see that written just stop there.

That logic worked when going from FLA to more expensive SLA. You wanted a "starter bank." Lithium is a totally, utterly, different animal.

The reason its wildly wrong up front is lifepo4 needs about 1/2 the solar as lead. Which makes it no more expensive. The whole learning curve of lead was getting them charged before the sun sets. The resistance rises with soc so charging slows as it fills. Practically everyone undercharges lead, the hold-outs scream "I DON'T"...but its physics. You can only charge so fast and you only have so much time.

lifepo4 doesnt have that resistance nor does it need filled everyday. So if you start with lead youre building a fundementally different system up front. An expensive, much larger, much heavier system, frankly.

For example i will use my rough setup. You pull 80ah overnight. You have 2-6v 235ah batteries and 400w/20A to charge with. You're continuous load is 6.5A. So yoire actually charging with a 13.5A charger in a 400w system. Using the formula for lifeline AGM, which are considered high quality, much lower resistance, and significantly higher efficiency over standard FLA

(dod/100) x (ah/c) + 3ab [.66 x 235ah/13.5a + 3] = 20.4hrs to reach 100%.

If you take a flat mounted 800w/40a system you still need 7.6hrs. In 7.6hrs - 6.5a load you could have produced 254ah....to replace the 80ah. Had you had lifepo4 you wouldve filled it up in about 2hrs.

IOW in this common scenario, the best lead AGM's @ 235ah need 800w AND a backup source for cloudy days as 800w is marginal/nominal. With lifepo4 400w over produces about 40%.

"What do y'all think of this sentiment?"

I agree with much of it.

On most DIY forums, most members have at least some background experience in underlying fields. Like DIY home builders have some woodworking knowledge, DIY boat builders have some fiberglassing experience, DIY EV car builders have some auto mechanic experience, etc etc....

But here, on a DIY solar forum, it seems the large majority of posters have zero electrical experience. They are putting the cart before the horse. These people should be learning with cheap, forgiving FLAs because I can guarantee many of them will make mistakes that will kill their new lithiums. They should know their own limits and if they still decide to start with lithium, fine...as long as they are warned (which doesn't seem to happen here without backlash from the fanboys).

I'm still trying to get my head around the source driving the enthusiasm.
I suspect it has a lot to do with value for minimal effort. (Once installed & working) Kind of like being pleased my community got a huge federal/state grant & not realizing it's still my tax $$ that got granted. Federal subsidies I'm sure is driving some of it as well.
For me personally it is independence.
I reacted negatively to a National Park Vendor telling me no electric @ a site I just booked & when I mentioned generator I got NO, NO the campground has FHU's. I've been on the quest ever since.
As for the ignorance seen here from some noobs, I'll say this. "I've never attempted something until I was completely educated on it in my entire life" NOT!
It is the way of pioneers to try. Thank God for all the guides on here. Even guides learn & improve helping green horns.

Lithium has only become viable the past few years. Im willing to bet very few here have not been through FLA conundrum.

Ped said:

Lithium has only become viable the past few years. Im willing to bet very few here have not been through FLA conundrum.

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Indeed!

SCClockDr said:

Indeed!

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Defending FLA is like stockholm syndrome from a psychotic girlfriend. What do you mean 5 fits of crying and rage a day isnt normal? At least she isnt boring. Shes a starter girlfriend! ?

It's an unfortunate human condition. "This is how I learned and I'm super smart so this must be the best way". Hogwash. In 20 years you won't be able to buy a LA battery, so what then? Nobody will be able to figure it out? I call this "grumpy old man syndrome".

It's a DIY forum, someone will make their own LA battery! Stockpile the separators, they'll be worth a mint in 20 years time.

New Mexico Will said:

It's an unfortunate human condition. "This is how I learned and I'm super smart so this must be the best way". Hogwash. In 20 years you won't be able to buy a LA battery, so what then? Nobody will be able to figure it out? I call this "grumpy old man syndrome".

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If you dont know how to start the boiler on your steam car, you have no business getting a gasoline engine. Youre talking about a 1000 explosions a minute.

BYD... used 200ish Ah 24v LITHIUM battery... around 300.00

um... I never want to see another LEAD battery!

Ped said:

If you dont know how to start the boiler on your steam car, you have no business getting a gasoline engine. Youre talking about a 1000 explosions a minute.

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... my v8 has around 24000 explosions per minute...

Thats just sheer bolshevism

You all with your mystery batteries...lets see how they are doing in a few years, eh? Some probably won't last the year. But you fanboys wouldn't come on here and admit it. Hey, let's all go crazy and buy an expensive silver box full of dogshit rejects from china! Yeah, we are soo smart! Lets buy a battleborn for 10x the cost of LA's and then realize it's not big enough to do anything worthwhile, so you are now stuck shelling out another grand for another...yeah, sooo smart. Let's all make the newbies waste their money before they even know what they need...brilliant.

SolarRat said:

You all with your mystery batteries...lets see how they are doing in a few years, eh? Some probably won't last the year. But you fanboys wouldn't come on here and admit it. Hey, let's all go crazy and buy an expensive silver box full of dogshit rejects from china! Yeah, we are soo smart! Lets buy a battleborn for 10x the cost of LA's and then realize it's not big enough to do anything worthwhile, so you are now stuck shelling out another grand for another...yeah, sooo smart. Let's all make the newbies waste their money before they even know what they need...brilliant.

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I have to say, although I don't normally say it on here, I'm not going Lithium when I upgrade in the spring. I think the costs are going to come crashing down very soon, and solid state batteries seem imminent, which will seriously drive down the cost of Lithium. Post edited for accuracy.

New Mexico Will said:

I have to say, although I don't normally say it on here, I'm not going Lithium when I upgrade in the spring. I think the costs are going to come crashing down very soon, and solid state batteries seem imminent, which will seriously drive down the cost of Lithium. I'm going to be using 6volt SLA batteries, 8 of them, and I'll get 1,040 usable amp hours for $2,800. It pencils out easily.

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If you get serious with that wind turbine they might last long enough to hopefully see the end of this tariff disaster and prices of lifepo4 will drop.

SolarRat said:

You all with your mystery batteries...lets see how they are doing in a few years, eh? Some probably won't last the year. But you fanboys wouldn't come on here and admit it. Hey, let's all go crazy and buy an expensive silver box full of dogshit rejects from china! Yeah, we are soo smart! Lets buy a battleborn for 10x the cost of LA's and then realize it's not big enough to do anything worthwhile, so you are now stuck shelling out another grand for another...yeah, sooo smart. Let's all make the newbies waste their money before they even know what they need...brilliant.

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Battleborn has a 10 year warranty. Thats like 5 sets of FLA garbage.

New Mexico Will said:

I think the costs are going to come crashing down very soon

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Exactly! People here (who don't know how to read) think that anyone who recommends LAs must be against lithium. I've been using lithium for 15 years and love the technology. But I'm using them where they make sense...not in applications that don't need their benefits. If someone NEEDS lithium now, go for it. But in a few years they will be so much cheaper, and more importantly BETTER. Most of the crappy companies will be weeded out, tech is getting better, and LA's are a great short term solution until then. My LA boat bank does everything I need it to, for $300. The same bank in lithium would cost me thousands (36v 105ah) with no real benefit for my application. And I'm not talking about mystery batteries...you better be ready to bend over with them.

Ped said:

If you get serious with that wind turbine they might last long enough to hopefully see the end of this tariff disaster and prices of lifepo4 will drop.

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As I said several times, I have little to no intention of putting up a wind turbine.