Rant: EG4 48v 100ah battery has faulty BMS. Signature solar customer service is TERRIBLE

JoeHam said:

This thread is increasingly nasty and mean spirited, not what I’m used to seeing on the forum over the years.

No wonder very few companies are on here.

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Sadly its the only way the truth comes out, for like 2 years we had this Grade A BS running amok until finally we know have settled it and this new UL listed BS is going to have to run its course.

That is the nature of the internet lots of FUD, Lots of BS, but in the end BS gets exposed.

I also agree Will Prowse Claims UL listed but its not...

Alkaline said:

Sadly its the only way the truth comes out

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Again, I’m all for the truth coming out. I’m all for calling out BS etc

My point is: Can’t this be accomplished in a more civil manner ?

I doubt we will ever see Sol Ark or Victron or Renogy or (insert company name here) make the effort to help someone when the thread title and general tone is that their company/service is TERRIBLE.

And I think the few companies that try to help solve issues here have to be asking if it’s a good use of their time and effort.

That’s all, agree or disagree. But please understand my simple point.

Well I'm going to step out of this, I don't know enough about TUV vs UL, maybe they are equivalent but then again every electrician I talked to said UL or go to Hell so yeah... Good luck, not sure why they can't just pay to have them certified in both places and be done.

JoeHam said:

Again, I’m all for the truth coming out. I’m all for calling out BS etc

My point is: Can’t this be accomplished in a more civil manner ?

I doubt we will ever see Sol Ark or Victron or Renogy or (insert company name here) make the effort to help someone when the thread title and general tone is that their company/service is TERRIBLE.

And I think the few companies that try to help solve issues here have to be asking if it’s a good use of their time and effort.

That’s all, agree or disagree. But please understand my simple point.

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I am on a lot of Forums and most companies do not offer customer support on the forums because is just exposes their product issue's to a wider audience. It's been my experience that the only companies that tend to stick around forums all day long are the ones looking to get new customers from the forum. The others only pop by if a thread gets out of hand and someone has alerted them to it.
I have seen Victron and Sol-Ark reps make rare appearance on here when they thought it was required, but I never seen them using it as a platform to promote new products.

JoeHam said:

I have read the new rules and am aware this is not a sellers forum. Never has been. That’s not my concern or the issue I am trying to bring up. I couldn’t care less about sales.

You have missed my point that companies are less likely to help here when people treat them so poorly while they are trying to help.

A bit of civility will often help people help others. If they are just getting a load of grief why bother trying?

And in fact the overwhelming majority of companies whose products we buy don’t make the effort to get on the forum at all.

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I completely agree.
I have gone through the warranty process with them and yes there are a series of procedures but in the end I was satisfied with the result. I do not know every detail of this post so I do not have an opinion on this matter. I'm just glad I'm able to come on here and voice issues with real-time feedback from the manufacturer.

robby said:

but I never seen them using it as a platform to promote new products.

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That being said you have never seen them on here helping their DIY customers either. Trying to figure out what the customer needs and help them to achieve it. Those other guys just come on here when the crap hits the fan. SS is constantly on here answering questions. I believe they promote their products well elsewhere.

Shannonsman229 said:

Amazon has ruined the world! Everything has free shipping free returns. With this they have created a monster of self-righteous customers that take no responsibility for their self.
I'm not saying signature solar is a saint but they are a great business. I'm not seeing any other companies on here conversing with customers in an open atmosphere.

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100%. Maybe this thread should have been a "hey, using this inverter and this one battery, my vac shut the system down. Maybe I'm missing something, whadda think?"

Feels like I've stepped into an episode of General Hostility. (General Hospital for the not-so-old) Not sure what we are learning at this point but, whatever.

AKvalleyguy said:

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Jammin!

An 822W vacuum on an inverter shut down a 5kW (continuous rated) battery.

That is a load that a car battery and 12V square-wave inverter could have powered.
Was it unreasonable of OP to expect it to work?

Hedges said:

An 822W vacuum on an inverter shut down a 5kW (continuous rated) battery.

That is a load that a car battery and 12V square-wave inverter could have powered.
Was it unreasonable of OP to expect it to work?

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One would certainly expect that it could handle the load with ease.
Even if I factor in that it could be some kind of DC feedback issue, I would expect the Inverter to freak out, not the battery BMS to overload and shutdown.
At the end of the day the main thing that disturbs me is that it ended up costing the OP $749 and he now has nothing to show for it. Is that really fair?

Hedges said:

An 822W vacuum on an inverter shut down a 5kW (continuous rated) battery.

That is a load that a car battery and 12V square-wave inverter could have powered.
Was it unreasonable of OP to expect it to work?

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Man, I keep viewing this thread like it's a car wreak. Has anyone considered the OP has an inverter that is messed up, or his/her wiring is weak or incorrect? OP has been on the forum way longer than myself so who am I, exactly, to question the dude/dudette? Almost seems we need a jury trial to determine the victim and perp. But, if the forum is going to run a forensic exam, seems we need to see all the evidence, on both sides.

AKvalleyguy said:

Man, I keep viewing this thread like it's a car wreak. Has anyone considered the OP has an inverter that is messed up, or his/her wiring is weak or incorrect? OP has been on the forum way longer than myself so who am I, exactly, to question the dude/dudette? Almost seems we need a jury trial to determine the victim and perp. But, if the forum is going to run a forensic exam, seems we need to see all the evidence, on both sides.

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Yep and also the possibility of a poor quality Vacuum. My concern is just the financial hit the guy took. This should have been resolved in a way that did not involve so much lost money. As you said he seems to have been into Solar since 2019 and has experience. From reading his post I get the feeling that he was running that Inverter on AGM batteries before he got the EG4.

robby said:

Yep and also the possibility of a poor quality Vacuum. My concern is just the financial hit the guy took. This should have been resolved in a way that did not involve so much lost money. As you said he seems to have been into Solar since 2019 and has experience. From reading his post I get the feeling that he was running that Inverter on AGM batteries before he got the EG4.

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I've been working with various kinds of mobile RV solar systems since about 2017. Started with some AGM batteries back in the day, quickly figured out I should move to lithium.

Built my first "real" system in 2018 with 200ah of LiFePO4 (DIY) and Outback components (inverter, solar charge controller). That gear served me really well. Expensive, but solid quality and to this day has never given me any trouble.

In this latest build, I took Will's favorite inverter (MPP LV 6548), paired it with what appeared (according to the specs) to be a battery that should run it fine, so long as we're not pushing high loads, and was looking to build a really simple system. I only picked up a single battery because I didn't need much storage capacity in this system, so there was no need for another (so I thought at the time).

What I learned in this whole debacle is that the LV 6548, being a giant high-frequency inverter, can put some crazy demands on a battery. Or, at least that's my vague understanding after learning the lesson the very, very hard way. A simple surge request from a little vacuum can send it off on a battery-guzzling rampage that will trip up a server-rack battery.

I seriously didn't anticipate this super-high surge demand from the LV 6548. I was accustomed to my low-frequency, extremely stable and reliable Outback 3600 inverter which has worked like a champ since day 1. I've run everything I can possibly think of (including this stupid vacuum) on it without any problems at all, ever. I use it to run fridges, a shallow well water pump, microwaves, anything and everything one comes across in life and it handles it like a champ.

I figured the LV 6548 plus a decent-sized battery would work fine given the specs of both units. Yes, the LV 6548 recommends something like 158ah of battery (or something like that), but I thought that was a recommendation based on reserve capacity, not the crazy inrush demands the inverter makes. The LV 6548 doesn't explicitly state why a single 100ah battery wouldn't work. Since I wasn't educated on the why (or perhaps I just missed it somewhere), this situation got all messed up.

So when the vacuum sent the battery into surge protection mode, that's where my efforts were focused. Why would a single, 822-watt appliance, break this battery? It wasn't reasonable.

Was I expecting a full refund from SS? Yep! I was expecting them to find the battery was at fault. I still wish the battery was setup in such a way that it could handle peak loads a bit more gracefully, but that's getting into the nuance of the battery, and most people will be running this setup with at least 2 batteries, which could likely handle the load.

If, and this is looking with 20/20 retrospective, SS customer service had looked at the inverter I was running, and had any of the knowledge that I've since learned via this thread, they would have pointed out that my inverter was trying to such way too much power from the battery and that was the actual cause of the issue. Instead, we focused on the battery, because that's where I believed the problem was, since the battery was what was going into fault mode. If they had said, "hey, running that giant inverter, it creates inrush demands to the battery that are beyond its spec, go check this documentation (somewhere)", then it could have been a different story. But, that's all in 20/20 hindsight.

It cost me $700-something to learn that high-frequency inverters pretty much suck, as far as I'm concerned. It also cost signature solar a very negative thread on this forum before the actual answers of what happened and how each side handled the situation. It also kind of sucks that SS customer support is now better educated on why their batteries can go into short-circuit protection, and I'm paying for their education.

Personally, I will never buy from signature solar again. Today's consumers do expect more, whether or not it's good for the company's bottom line. Was it worth it for them to save a couple hundred bucks on my order? If they had refunded me the original purchase price of $1499, I wouldn't have posted here. I would have chalked it up to a bad battery and moved on. Instead, they got this thread, and probably influenced at some other potential customers, so who knows what kind of sales were lost there.

Honestly, people need to stop taking purchasing advise from people who get paid to recommend certain products, period. There is no guarantee of integrity in a system like that.

What a wall of text. Buried in it, you say “it’s my fault.”

You come across as pretty entitled and vindictive.

I don’t like the way sig solar has handled some customer service issues. But I’m more likely to buy their stuff after reading this dreck.

Mission [not] accomplished.

mberding said:

Instead, they got this thread, and probably influenced at some other potential customers, so who knows what kind of sales were lost there.

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Did not lose my sale, I actually tried to buy your battery but alas there were no refurbs available yesterday

This thread actually helped me decide, being a retired electronics tech with 44 years of fixin folks tv's, vcr's, stereo's and yes I have repaired a few inverters in my day and over that time being the tech, the service manager and the owner I have seen many such situations

After seeing how Richard went out of his way in this thread much like I would have I had no problem placing my order yesterday and that I would've been a dog huntin for a bone if I were in Richards shoes. I would have asked for the dirt devil to be shipped back with the battery and if I was unable to duplicate I would have traveled as I was always a bit ocd when it comes solving the puzzle. While other techs were replacing tuners and capstan motors, I was the tech that found the bad diode in the tuner or the bad cap on the motor. The common fail Fisher tuner and Toshiba motor both cost over $100, I charged $1.24 for the diode and $1.50 for the cap and repaired hundreds of em

That being said, if I were in James shoes I'd not only refund the $$$ but would ship out a new battery at no cost because I am very aware, with much experience, that it would return tenfold in the big picture. At the very least issue a store credit.

I spent a lot of time reading here before joining and have seen a lot of positive post involving SS and 2 bad ones, this one and a used panel thread where it could go either way for potential new customers? For used panels I would go with Santan as they are closer shipping wise (I'm in Colorado) so SS never had that part of my business to start

I think what SS and other companies do not take into effect is the google bots these days too. The forums back end tags and bots, these threads are easily ranked and put at the top of searches.



Even if you are a consumer and you use the word terrible you get

mberding said:

I figured the LV 6548 plus a decent-sized battery would work fine given the specs of both units. Yes, the LV 6548 recommends something like 158ah of battery (or something like that), but I thought that was a recommendation based on reserve capacity, not the crazy inrush demands the inverter makes. The LV 6548 doesn't explicitly state why a single 100ah battery wouldn't work.

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For my 6kW Sunny Island, battery capacity setting ranges from 100 Ah to 10,000 Ah (lead-acid), as low as 50 Ah (lithium).
Not mentioned for previous 5kW model, but now recommended minimums are given for newer 4.5kW and 6kW models:

"SMA recommends the following minimum battery capacities:
• Minimum battery capacity per Sunny Island inverter:
– Sunny Island 4548-US: 190 Ah
– Sunny Island 6048-US: 250 Ah
• Minimum battery capacity per 1 kW output power of the PV system: 100 Ah (C20)"

The capacity based on PV is because it is AC coupled, has to pull down current to battery for a few seconds before adjusting output.

I'm now using 405 Ah AGM with 4x 6048 US, with 10kW of PV. So 1000 Ah would be recommended.
I initially commissioned the system with 105 Ah of old, tired batteries (about 40% capacity remaining.)

Their recommendation makes it 0.2C charge rate, 0.48C continuous discharge, 0.88C surge (3 seconds)
My system isn't heavily loaded, so actual operation is usually within those limits.

The conservative, larger battery bank recommendation would make a system more robust. But transients of 100's of amps is something batteries and cells themselves can do; it seems to be BMS which is the limiting factor. Still, I've got a Harbor Freight LiFePO4 jumpstarter the size of a ladie's clutch which can deliver 100's of amps. That is NOT a 100 Ah battery! For inverters delivering 5kW continuous, 10kW surge, we need a 48V battery that can deliver 200A for a few seconds.

shot428 said:

I would have asked for the dirt devil to be shipped back with the battery and if I was unable to duplicate I would have traveled as I was always a bit ocd when it comes solving the puzzle.

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Likely the inverter is part of the story too.
Could be harmonics upsetting measurement circuitry, high current pulses from unfiltered switcher, BMS disconnect faster the original data sheet timing (a second, not 1/10th millisecond)

Funny how this leads back to a “system” approach. And SS is moving that way. Buy our battery and our inverter.

This works, and it doesn’t. Since I’ve bought current connected batteries (4 server rack), I’m not buying a SS all in one until they tell me it will work.

I need to chime in here.

First of all - the forum was cleaned of a lot of users who ONLY came to the forums to post sales etc, and try to make money. There is a reason my account still exists, there is a reason Will specifically pointed me out as what he wants from companies - because I interact on the forums in a way to help the solar industry grow. Of course I think our products are great, but I know they aren't for everyone. I'm here to help where I can and point people to solutions when I have them. I'm not perfect, Signature Solar isn't perfect, EG4 isn't perfect. But we also try our damn hardest all the time to get the best products at affordable prices, and help before, during, and after you deal with us. There are not a lot of companies that do that. And let me be very upfront and clear: I wasn't selected to be on the forums or paid to be here from the start. I come here because I genuinely like helping people, I love learning, and I don't let my emotions get the better of me to come in here and yell or curse people out. I was asked to work in the forums more after I was already here on my own time helping.

I really do believe more companies would be on here if everyone didn't let their emotions get the best of them. I take a lot of heat sometimes. And to be honest, its rarely warranted. But, that's why people actually like me around here (I think), because I just roll with the punches and ignore the haters. I'm not here to make everyone happy or a ton of friends - that just naturally happens when someone is trying hard to find answers and be a genuinely nice guy. So take that for what it's worth.

I'm going to highlight some comments above and respond at this point, but just wanted to get that out there.

robby said:

I am

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In reply to your entire post - I hope you can say that I'm different. We are here pretty much daily helping - and not only when it hits the fan if you know what I mean.

mberding said:

paired it with what appeared (according to the specs)

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The problem is it literally doesn't pair with it according to the specs. You can deduce whatever reasoning you want, but the inverter specifically calls for a larger battery (250ah) and higher amp capacity than our battery is rated for. Also I think you are combining these 2 different specs into 1 during your statement. AH sizing of a battery bank and amp discharge rate are 2 different specs, neither of which our battery exceeds from the specs of the inverter.

mberding said:

SS customer service had looked at the inverter I was running

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SS tries to help as much as they can. I see these guys doing tons of research to help people - but there is literally no way for them to know all the specs of every third party inverter and appliance. And honestly, they shouldn't need to either. We have a design team that will work with you and design an entire system using parts and components they have tested to work together. If you want to DIY your own build (which I 100% encourage and think is awesome), it's a part of that process to do the research and not be upset after the fact when it doesn't work as expected for technical reasons.

mberding said:

I was expecting them to find the battery was at fault.

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They told you that they didn't think the battery was at fault, and they believed that there was something in your system causing the alarm prior to beginning the RMA process. You insisted that it was not the vacuum or your system, that it was the battery, and you wanted to return it. They told you the possible outcomes (it is the battery and get a refund/replacement, or it isn't the battery and you will need to pay for it to be shipped back or refund less shipping + restocking fee) prior to the process. You agreed to these terms and still opted to send the battery back.

mberding said:

If they had said, "hey, running that giant inverter, it creates inrush demands to the battery that are beyond its spec, go check this documentation (somewhere)"

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The onus of responsibility of a DIY build is not on them to research. They told you (correctly) that the issue was the short circuit protection, and it was likely somewhere in the system. They did troubleshoot this correctly, and provided the correct reason for the fault. That's all I can say about it to be honest.

mberding said:

It also kind of sucks that SS customer support is now better educated on why their batteries can go into short-circuit protection, and I'm paying for their education.

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This isn't the case at all. They told you that it was something in the system exceeding the specs for the battery causing the short circuit protection to engage. If you had a system designed by our team, then I'd be inclined to agree with you. They 100% know why batteries go into short-circuit protection. They told you the reason. You disagreed with their assessment and then opted to continue the RMA process knowing the possible outcomes. The money you 'paid' was not for their education at all - it was for the shipping charges and cost to test and restock the battery.

mberding said:

I wouldn't have posted here

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Honestly I'm always glad for posts like these. I'm happy to show how far I will go for customers to show and explain the how and why behind decisions whether they are perceived as positive for the customer or not. Most other people who read this thread will see the length SS's team went to help you during troubleshooting, a fair and transparent refund policy, and someone on the forums busting their ass to be here and engage with customers and likely think more positively of our company.

robby said:

This should have been resolved in a way that did not involve so much lost money.

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The money isn't 'lost'. It was SPENT. Most of it was spent with the shipping companies who 100% did ship the battery to him, and shipped it back. It was also spent on an entire team to ensure the battery was tested, and restocked into inventory where SS now has to sell it at a discounted price.

I'd also like to quickly point out that Signature Solar, due to backorders etc being quoted shipping during the original order, frequently pays more for shipping that what the customer is charged. When this happens, they don't reach out saying "hey you owe us another $40 for shipping because it changed." They just take care of it to take care of our customers.

Bluedog225 said:

Since I’ve bought current connected batteries (4 server rack), I’m not buying a SS all in one until they tell me it will work.

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Working with Dexter on this as we speak.

Solar388 said:

I think what SS and other companies do not take into effect is the google bots these days too. The forums back end tags and bots, these threads are easily ranked and put at the top of searches.

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I mean, regardless of what company you type in, if you append it with a word like 'Rant' or 'Sucks' or anything like that you are going to find what you are looking for. I worked at GoDaddy for 8 years and have tons of experience with how search engine algorithms work. In fact, GoDaddy bought www.godaddysucks.com specifically for this reason.

Hope that this long winded post is worth the read!