diy solar

diy solar

Solar and the Economy Your Thoughts??? Or anything else on your mind!

A strong and reliable grid is an essential part of a developed country's infrastructure, like roads and clean water. Widespread abandoning of the grid is not realistic and a huge waste of consumer's and society's time and money.

Apocalyptic scenarios make great stories but hopefully only deluded people will dedicate their lives to shtf preparations.
I think most sheeple will completely agree with you. I bet most Ukrainians had the exact same thoughts a couple of years ago. Let’s not even mention the EU same group think. All singing a different tune now. So be my guest and let the government provide for you. You will own nothing and love it. I personally subscribe to the pioneer spirit that our country was founded on. I’ll blaze my own trail thank you.
 
There are economies of scale in producing power centrally, and if you happen to have big rivers you can dam, so much the better.
If your grid is flaky, fix it. If your grid managers or politicians aren't up to the job, replace them.
Renewables and new technologies are being continuously phased in for centralized grids around the world. This is a good thing!

But let's not let our enthusiasm for individual solar blind us to the bigger picture.
 
There are economies of scale in producing power centrally, and if you happen to have big rivers you can dam, so much the better.
If your grid is flaky, fix it. If your grid managers or politicians aren't up to the job, replace them.
Renewables and new technologies are being continuously phased in for centralized grids around the world. This is a good thing!

But let's not let our enthusiasm for individual solar blind us to the bigger picture.
On the contrary, my friend. Home power generation is a reality. You are free to negotiate prices for the power lines, transformers, and other accoutrement needed for your lifestyle with your provider. Leave me and my anti-socialist tax-dollars out of your equations.
 
The answer is always: it depends.

If all you're looking at is an economic viability of PV/battery for your home then you have to consider a whole array of variables to make the determination whether solar makes economic sense for a given situation and with a given known set of paramters.

Just to name the few critical ones:
1) Cost of the install. This is most easily expressed in $/W. It is one of the biggest variables. You also have to take a guess as to PV in the future will be less or more expensive. If PV prices will drop in 2 years time it might even make sense to postpone a purchase even if it was net positive to make that purchase today.

2) Total estimated annual production. It can vary widely by location anywhere between 4 hours to 6 hours of average production per day which can have the same effect on ROI where 6 hours would make sense but 4 hours would not. This variable can also be impacted by your individual situation ie. can you place all panels in an optimal southern facing location with no shading and ideal angle, or are you more limited to put them facing east/west on a less than ideal roof slope.

3) Life expectancy of the system. String inverters may last as little as 10 years, panels may go as long as 30. What is the estimated maintenance cost over the life expectancy of the system? Even if a part is guaranteed for 30 years, cost of repairs can be significant if you have to have someone come and replace microinverters on your roof or panels need swapping. What if you need to replace your roof during that time, did you account for the labor involved in removing and replacing the perfectly fine and working panels?

4) Price of electricity. If the electricity is cheap ROI will be much longer. If electricity is expensive, ROI will be much quicker. Do you anticipate prices going up or down in the future? If you do, by how much? Will it be matching that of inflation or significantly more/less?

5) Tax credits/subsidies? Is there some kind of government incentive on installing solar where you live? If yes, it can change your equation and net cost in a significant way.

6) Do you have Net metering? More than likely you no longer can expect watt for watt return on your solar production and you have to face the possibility that some or most of your production will not be of value to you, certainly not at 100%. If you do not have net metering, what is your estimated self consumption ratio? Do you get anything for power you're loading onto the grid? If you have peak demand pricing you might be coming out better if you put power on the grid when cost is higher rather than self consume/conserve. If you don't have net metering and you want to optimize self consumption you either have to go with a smaller system or you have to add some kind of battery storage for additional cost, also negatively impacting your ROI.

7) What is the opportunity cost of the money you're spending on solar? Could you get better ROI on your money had you invested it than purchasing the solar setup? Could you have avoided interest cost had you not financed it? These are all variables that should be considered from a financial perspective.

As you can see there are a lot of variables, many of you may not have the ability to control or even know making the simple question of whether solar is a wise economic decision far too difficult to answer.

Having said all this there are also other factors that are even harder to put a monetary cost/benefit to:

1) Are you DIY? Is the experience of installing and owning a solar setup a net positive or negative to your life? Is it a hobby that brings you joy, or is it an extra thing you need to worry about going forward?

2) How reliable is your alternate power source ie. generator or grid? Is the cost of having your own system benefits you enough in peace of mind of being partially or wholly independent from another source?

3) Do you feel good/bad about the environment and your own impact on it? Are you willing to bear some of the economic cost of a greener energy production, if there is a cost associated with it ie. your ROI is a net negative in terms of pure financials without accounting f or externalities?

I have created a spreadsheet that should allow everyone to play with their own numbers and see if the financial ROI is even there before they try to answer and put cost/value on the externalities and intangibles.


You should be able to make a local copy of the spreadsheet and play with your own numbers. The numbers in the sheet reflect what I'm expecting out of my system at my location based on my panels, their orientation, and my total cost including batteries. My ROI is about 14.2 years not accounting for inflation and about 10.7 years with a 3% inflation. This also does not account for all the other benefits I receive from having most of my consumption covered via my PV setup and the added resiliency and backup benefits.
 
If the past few years hasn't open up people's eyes to the depravity of our collective governments and their global corporate puppet masters, then it's quite possible those who still think the MSM delivers "news" and believe their (s)elected politicians are working for the people will never awaken from their slumber. My simple message to these people is: "You are being lied to."

It can't hurt to be as prepared as I can be...regardless of what becomes of it all.
 
If the past few years hasn't open up people's eyes to the depravity of our collective governments and their global corporate puppet masters, then it's quite possible those who still think the MSM delivers "news" and believe their (s)elected politicians are working for the people will never awaken from their slumber. My simple message to these people is: "You are being lied to."

It can't hurt to be as prepared as I can be...regardless of what becomes of it all.
Can we stay on subject without turning the discussion political?

And as far as "being prepared", there is an obvious cost that most people are unable/unwilling to pay. I definitely have seen these kind of discussions regressing into "preppers justifying their choices" because they're the loudest and feel the most insecure in their own decision. Cognitive bias is a terrible guidance counselor.
 
How do you know you are outside the box if you do not define the box?

My opinion on solar is it has its use cases. It is not an investment for most individuals anymore than a clothes dryer is an investment. Our present world economic condition is that the total world debt of all countries and individuals is around $600 Trillion dollars. This in my opinion is unsustainable. I also think the population level is unsustainable based on dwindling resources.

PV is a terrible choice if you do not live where you have sufficient sunshine to make use of it either due to weather or location. It is also a bad choice if it has to be paid for by borrowing money. JMHO
Borrowed money at 2% fee.
Looking at my figures already, I'm confident of a 12-15% ROI.
 
Can we stay on subject without turning the discussion political?

And as far as "being prepared", there is an obvious cost that most people are unable/unwilling to pay. I definitely have seen these kind of discussions regressing into "preppers justifying their choices" because they're the loudest and feel the most insecure in their own decision. Cognitive bias is a terrible guidance counselor.
Cannot disregard policies and politics as they are factors that affect us all. Look everyone has choices and those choices all have consequences. If one thinks things are great then by all means continue living in fantasy land. Personally I think it’s everyone’s obligation to be minimally prepared for emergencies. But they don’t and when that natural disaster rolls in they are the first in front of the news cameras pleading help me help me. Lived through a 1 week ice storm and that’s all I heard for the entire week. Why aren’t they here to help. As for me and my house we are prepared to live or die by our own personal decisions and it will be a cold day in hell before you see my ugly mug in front of a news camera begging for help.
 
Simply ignoring everything happening around the world and thinking it can never happen here is nothing but a fool’s errand
 
Personally I think it’s everyone’s obligation to be minimally prepared for emergencies.
There are 11 million children in the US who can't afford school lunches. Somehow I think emergency preparedness is the least of their and their parent's worries.... You're preaching from a perspective of significant privilege with zero humility or basic awareness of what surrounds you.
 
Simply ignoring everything happening around the world and thinking it can never happen here is nothing but a fool’s errand
And insisting that you're the sane and reasonable voice. Cognitive bias goes both ways.
 
There are 11 million children in the US who can't afford school lunches. Somehow I think emergency preparedness is the least of their and their parent's worries.... You're preaching from a perspective of significant privilege with zero humility or basic awareness of what surrounds you.
Here we go a white privilege guy who just spent a small fortune on a PV system installed by a contractor spreading garbage about someone he knows nothing about. All the while you’re sitting in your multimillion dollar home and swimming in your pool. Save it brother.
 
And insisting that you're the sane and reasonable voice. Cognitive bias goes both ways.
Wrong I’m not saying I’m sane or reasonable I’m saying I’m independent and I need nothing you have to offer.
 
Here we go a white privilege guy who just spent a small fortune on a PV system installed by a contractor spreading garbage about someone he knows nothing about. All the while you’re sitting in your multimillion dollar home and swimming in your pool. Save it brother.
Unlike you, I'm keenly aware of my own privilege and recognize that my situation is not like everyone else's. You on the other hand feel very strongly about things only make sense the way you and your lord intended it...
 
You got called out twice about it in a single thread, I'd say it's time to reflect....
 
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