diy solar

diy solar

120V on the PV line?? Discussion of Will's video

Lick it. Duh.
You laugh but I can barely feel 120v unless I'm grounded really well. In my younger days I would sometimes lick my finger and touch whatever I was in doubt of. Even then it's just a tingle. I actually asked a doctor about it and he said he had heard of it and gave me some long medical explanation that essentially came down to different people having different conductivity in their body. I dunno if that's true or not. I just know I don't freak out about getting shocked. Now 240v will get my attention if I grab both legs, yep.

Disclaimer: Don't try this at home.
 
So, to know if there is a shock hazard or not, we do what? String a AC load like a 120VAC test lamp and check if there is sufficient voltage and current to light the lamp? Ditto DC load, but what am i going to use for 80VDC as a test load? Will noted his multi meter blew a 10A fuse?

Just took "Qualified Electrical Worker" training yesterday. Again.
"120V enough to light 7W bulb can be lethal." "10 mA (or was that 30 mA), muscles in arm tighten, and the ones that close grip are stronger than the ones that open (like alligator's snout), so you can't let go."

I used two electric radiators in parallel, 6 ohms, for 165W 36 Vmp PV panel.
 
You laugh but I can barely feel 120v unless I'm grounded really well. In my younger days I would sometimes lick my finger and touch whatever I was in doubt of. Even then it's just a tingle. I actually asked a doctor about it and he said he had heard of it and gave me some long medical explanation that essentially came down to different people having different conductivity in their body. I dunno if that's true or not. I just know I don't freak out about getting shocked. Now 240v will get my attention if I grab both legs, yep.

Disclaimer: Don't try this at home.
I'm the same way.
After many years of using my fingers as a tester. (To lazy to go back to the truck) I have built up a tolerance for it. My chiropractor always thinks his tens unit is malfunctioning. lol
 
1. There could be voltage on the MPP terminals of an AIO
2. This voltage could be AC or DC or signals that appear to a meter like they are AC or DC voltages
3. Using just a multi meter may not identify correctly what is present
So, to know if there is a shock hazard or not, we do what? String a AC load like a 120VAC test lamp and check if there is sufficient voltage and current to light the lamp? Ditto DC load, but what am i going to use for 80VDC as a test load? Will noted his multi meter blew a 10A fuse?
If we can't predict what may be present on the MPP terminals, can we plan a method to test?
you can use a old style light bulb as a load for AC or DC , lights up about 1/2 at 50volts also.
 
@timselectric @EastTexCowboy
Could the resistance you two are talking about possibly be from dead skin / calluses ? Trades people can tend to have pretty rough / thick hands. Are you using lotion daily? ?
No calluses to speak of.
I'm the same way.
After many years of using my fingers as a tester. (To lazy to go back to the truck) I have built up a tolerance for it. My chiropractor always thinks his tens unit is malfunctioning. lol
I've had the same experience with chiropractors. They end up cranking the thing up to ten and I'm barely twitching.
 
Cityboys...checking for live power? P*ss on the power fence ofc. Cows do it all the time ^^
 
Most of my SMA inverters, it says wait 15 minutes or so. I'm impatient, of course. When I see the LCD display go blank it is ready. At that point, the 400V has drained to about 30V.
I added an inline resistor, I think 10kohm, on one of my terminal plugs to bridge between bat +/- to make this < 1 minute ;) That said my cover is currently off since I am still working out COMs issues so it is easier to do. If you had an external circuit using this terminal though you could throw a switch and resistor in the mix to do this as well I would imagine.
 
From everything I've read on here and the video, it appears there is no shock hazard unless you open the case with either battery or AC input live at the time.
I dont see why any boost converting would be getting done if the inverter was not on, so unless it was said somewhere and i missed it (highly plausible) i would think having no ac input or ac ouput is sufficient, without having to disconnect 'battery input'.

For me, I'm just going to turn everything off before I open the case, which is what I did anyway.
I agree with that. I feel like the biggest issue isn't actually that this shock hazard exists under certain conditions. I think the biggest issue is presenting something as a solution when it isn't (even unintentionally), or emphasizing the wrong parts of the solution.

So, for example, grounding your array framing doesn't fix this. We already had someone say in this thread that ground fault detection would still allow lethal current. At that point you might as well call the 'thud' of the person rolling off the roof hitting the ground, the 'ground fault detection' method for all the good it's doing in terms of shock hazard. "Did you hear that?"

Turning off all the 'switching power' going into or coming out of the inverter, is probably sufficient but should be verified by meter.

Slightly preferable in my opinion, is using this as a talking point to explain the importance of a 2-pole breaker on PV circuit, even though it is ostensibly a floating DC circuit for which breaking only one pole would normally be sufficient. IMO you approach and explain it that way, you're doing the most good turning the 'prompt' into learning and into safety. As i said in another thread (poorly im sure), if you JUST tell someone ground your array and don't make them understand these other parts, you at best don't increase their safety, and at worst make their life more dangerous because now their nervous system has a better path back to source through the thing they are standing on, so that this theoretical PV ground fault detection can trip in the shortest number of seconds after they're dead?! Hoo-fucking-ray. "Hey the 10amp fuse here just popped, i think we have a PV fault. Where's dad, we gotta tell him?" Dad actually popped first.

But with just the 2-pole breaker there is still the chance of working on the inverter side of that breaker circuit with AC on, not realizing it might be there. So it needs to be all 3 things: remove AC input (breaker) and output (power switch) at inverter, isolate PV from inverter with 2-pole breaker, and verify success with a meter. Then you are left with just the 'regular' DC hazards of the PV array.

Just my .02.
 
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I dont see why any boost converting would be getting done if the inverter was not on, so unless it was said somewhere and i missed it (highly plausible) i would think having no ac input or ac ouput is sufficient, without having to disconnect 'battery input'.


I agree with that. I feel like the biggest issue isn't actually that this shock hazard exists under certain conditions. I think the biggest issue is presenting something as a solution when it isn't (even unintentionally), or emphasizing the wrong parts of the solution.

So, for example, grounding your array framing doesn't fix this. We already had someone say in this thread that ground fault detection would still allow lethal current. At that point you might as well call the 'thud' of the person rolling off the roof hitting the ground, the 'ground fault detection' method for all the good it's doing in terms of shock hazard. "Did you hear that?"

Turning off all the 'switching power' going into or coming out of the inverter, is probably sufficient but should be verified by meter.

Slightly preferable in my opinion, is using this as a talking point to explain the importance of a 2-pole breaker on PV circuit, even though it is ostensibly a DC circuit for which breaking only one pole would normally be sufficient. IMO you approach and explain it that way, you're doing the most good turning the 'prompt' into learning and into safety. As i said in another thread (poorly im sure), if you JUST tell someone ground your array and don't make them understand these other parts, you at best don't increase their safety, and at worst make their life more dangerous because now their nervous system has a better path back to source through the thing they are standing on, so that this theoretical PV ground fault detection can trip in the shortest number of seconds after they're dead. Hoo-fucking-ray.

But with just the 2-pole breaker there is still the chance of working on the inverter side of that breaker circuit with AC on, not realizing it might be there. So it needs to be all 3 things: remove AC input (breaker) and output (power switch) at inverter, isolate PV from inverter with 2-pole breaker, and verify success with a meter. Then you are left with just the 'regular' DC hazards of the PV array.

Just my .02.
Good points. As it turns out I have a 2-pole disconnect outside and again inside by the inverters. Partially laziness because I didn't want to have to walk out to the shop to turn it off and on. I usually end up doing that anyway but overall I'm happier to have the redundancy than not. It's not like it costs a lot. I also have a separate single breaker box by the inverters for the AC input, and a 3-pole double throw transfer switch so my wife doesn't shoot me if I'm messing with the solar stuff and she doesn't have power in the house. Sometimes it just comes down to self-preservation. ;)
 
Slightly preferable in my opinion, is using this as a talking point to explain the importance of a 2-pole breaker on PV circuit, even though it is ostensibly a DC circuit for which breaking only one pole would normally be sufficient. IMO you approach and explain it that way, you're doing the most good turning the 'prompt' into learning and into safety.

Considering possibility of faults (which can include leakage of PV to frame, which various panels may exhibit, especially in the second-hand market)

Breaking one pole ensures zero current, unless another unintended connection is present.
My earlier inverters had 1A "GFCI" fuse from PV- to ground. If PV+ shorts to ground, fuse blows and PV- is now -480Voc and goes inside inverter with no disconnect.
Transformerless inverters, neither PV lead is grounded and both can take on voltage.

My process is probe PV terminals of fuse holders (or other), confirm 380Vmp.
Open AC breaker.
Probe PV terminals, confirm 480 Voc indicating no current flow.
Open touch-safe fuse holders for both PV+, PV-
Confirm zero volts on inverter side of fuse holders (i.e. all parallel strings have been disconnected.) May be a short while for caps to discharge.
Now it is safe to handle wires.
If this had been a hybrid, would need battery disconnected or inverter shut down.

If I'm going to work on PV string side of fuse holders, those are still hot.
Going by color labels, identify MC cables at array and unplug.
That is "administrative", relies on color scheme to know which string no longer has current. No place to probe and check voltages.
If unknown, would have to shut off all inverters and confirm Voc on all circuits.
 
Breaking one pole ensures zero current, unless another unintended connection is present.
The other unintended connection is the grounding people are supposed to be doing to their PV arrays. Unless someone has already established somewhere that there is no path back to source that can happen through your grounding system. I have seen it explained that this ac voltage is actually high speed switching DC, but ALL ac created by the inverter is technically that without more detail, so i haven't seen it explicitly said that there is no path back to this 'ac' source through your grounding system. Seems to me that there could be and i should assume so unless someone actually explains that it's electrically not possible on ANY inverter design.
 
The other unintended connection is the grounding people are supposed to be doing to their PV arrays. Unless someone has already established somewhere that there is no path back to source that can happen through your grounding system. I have seen it explained that this ac voltage is actually high speed switching DC, but ALL ac created by the inverter is technically that without more detail, so i haven't seen it explicitly said that there is no path back to this 'ac' source through your grounding system. Seems to me that there could be and i should assume so unless someone actually explains that it's electrically not possible on ANY inverter design.
If the source is bonded correctly. There is definitely a path back through the grounding system.
 
With an always-on source (PV, battery, grid with neutral not bonded to ground), disconnecting the hot wire results in zero volts downstream, like in the inverter where you are working.
But while you're working there, addition of a fault in hot wire of source (e.g. PV+, battery+, grid L1) causing it to short to earth, suddenly the equipment you're working on is hot, and your body is the path back to earth.

So you need either return (e.g. neutral) solidly bonded to ground, or all-pole disconnect.
 
I finally got around to testing mine this afternoon after I did some re-cabling and cleanup. I have zero voltage on the PV connections on either inverter. Here's the scenario of my test -

Battery and battery breaker turned off
Solar input turned off at disconnect
No load
AC input turned on - 120v on AC input on both inverters

Testing all the PV input I had zero voltage on any of them. I tested both AC and DC voltage, although the situation in question was only AC.

These are two MPP LV6548 configured for split phase 240.

I do have the grounding screw removed on the primary inverter but I can't see where that would matter, and I do have everything grounded back to the earth ground on the main panel only.

I'm not complaining, but it's a little strange that everyone else is getting a range of AC voltage on the PV inputs and I'm not. Maybe y'all can figure it out. I'm thinking it's time for a Shiner Bock myself.

Your setup is the same as mine and it bit me hard. Running on battery, inverting, grid available but not using and PV breakers open. But hungry at the MC4 s at the bottom!
 
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