My dad has had enough of PG&E he wants too know where too order the correct solar panels and the choice of the 3 6000 xp’s or the eg4 18k. He’s not good with computers but he knows how too email so I’m making this post for him. He’s been in construction for over 40 years. Anything that has to do with the house he knows how to do plumbing, plumbing, electrical, etc.
Off grid in suburbia
- Thread starter TARDIS76
- Start date
hwy17
Anti-Solar Enthusiast
Does he want to do it with permits or without permits, and does he want to do it in a zero export or exporting configuration?
Without permit and he will not sell power back too PG&E
darrell2002
New Member
I'd advise against going without permits in suburban CA. Solar panels are hard to hide and CA POCOs and AHJs will make your life miserable if caught.
hwy17
Anti-Solar Enthusiast
Pretty wide choice of hardware then. However, there is a catch that any of these off grid self consumption inverters will leak tiny export blips if you hook them up to a grid AC input. It's an open question whether PG&E will ever notice or care. There is a report from someone in Florida who's utility did notice, but I have not heard the same story in California yet.
We have another report of a bay area suburban install getting a letter and fine when their unpermitted rooftop panels were reported, but they were not properly mounted. With proper mounting, much less likely anyone would be reporting.
For the paranoid, like me, I am running my system off grid without AC input, and I only take grid input to the system through a standalone battery charger, so that there is no chance of any export blips ever. All grid power gets double converted AC-DC-AC. That setup wastes 10-20% of the grid power in the process though.
fmeili1
Solar Enthusiast
...
My solution for this (possible) problem is to use contactors to connect the AC-in's to the grid - but only if the grid is really required. This reduces my connection time to the grid to around 10-20 hours per year.
Additionally, I only allow the AC input contactors to switch when my load is at least 100W per inverter, as I know that below that load the possible backfeed problem is much worse (in the testing phase of the AIOs they sometimes gave a "backfeed protection error" F60 when the load was less than 70W). In case my SOC is so low that I need AC-in and the load is <70W per inverter, I ramp up my 5 ton heat pump for a short time until I have a stable high load before I close the contactors. After the contactors are closed, I reset the heat pump to default (with a 3min delay).
Btw. I get all data via SolarAssistant and MQTT to my smart home system which does the controlling via some rules.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2020
- Messages
- 20,991
I suggest using PG&E for what it is good for - economical reliable power. It is certainly cheaper than a generator (at least for now, may change with flat rate infrastructure pricing.)
He should be able to build an off-grid system with transfer switch or interlocked breaker for grid power in case it fails.
"Chargeverter" or other method to draw from grid when battery gets low.
My SMA system, I could just tell it to use grid as generator, reducing or eliminating risk of backfeed. It would operate in parallel if battery got low enough to call for generator, otherwise offgrid. Some other brands could do the same.
Does he have need for lots of power in winter? That's when PV likely won't supply it. So NEM 3.0 and battery to time-shift backfeed could make sense. That has the opportunity to use $0.10/kWh power even in winter. Without that, using grid as generator, he'll be paying something like $0.45 to $0.60/kWh.
He should be able to build an off-grid system with transfer switch or interlocked breaker for grid power in case it fails.
"Chargeverter" or other method to draw from grid when battery gets low.
My SMA system, I could just tell it to use grid as generator, reducing or eliminating risk of backfeed. It would operate in parallel if battery got low enough to call for generator, otherwise offgrid. Some other brands could do the same.
Does he have need for lots of power in winter? That's when PV likely won't supply it. So NEM 3.0 and battery to time-shift backfeed could make sense. That has the opportunity to use $0.10/kWh power even in winter. Without that, using grid as generator, he'll be paying something like $0.45 to $0.60/kWh.
He wants absolutely nothing too do with them he wants too have his own solar/server rack battery setup he just wants links too buy the parts while supporting Will
hwy17
Anti-Solar Enthusiast
That requires PCS on a new install now, drastically limiting inverter selection. Of the DIY equipment maybe only Sol ark? Not even positive that Sol ark has it.
murmeister
Lifetime Learner
I'm sure your dad has forgotten more than I ever knew about electrical systems for the house. With that in mind, I offer that PV systems are a new beast and require knowledge that isn't readily known to many "old school" professionals. DC wiring requirements differ enough from AC that my local electric supply company is taking notes from the nominal information I possess. Even worse, some guys pretend they know all about DC then proceed with only AC requirements in mind. (example, running PV wires in the attic without metal conduit).
I hate permits as much as the next guy. However, if you end up needing to make an insurance claim, it could easily be denied if the installed system wasn't permitted and inspected.
Just my 1/50th of a $.
I recommend if he would like to email a team/person that can both provide the equipment he wants as well as stellar service that he contacts currentconnected.com. They are in Vegas and are a pleasure to work with
Oh yeah I forgot to say he's not hiring anyone too do the work he's doing it himself
They are a sales retailer not an installer. Was just trying to point ya to someone he could possibly engage with about inverters and what not
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2020
- Messages
- 20,991
If you look through the forum, you will find people singing the praises of Current Connected/Dexter/HighTechLabs.
Certain other vendors, not so much.
Good for him doing it all himself. Quite a few of us do too, although some with varying degrees of help when it comes to lifting 150# inverters or 4x8' PV panels.
Hope he does a thorough DIY design and analysis first.
Certain other vendors, not so much.
Good for him doing it all himself. Quite a few of us do too, although some with varying degrees of help when it comes to lifting 150# inverters or 4x8' PV panels.
Hope he does a thorough DIY design and analysis first.
Exactly…. Bravo…..Good thinking man….but I do have 2 propane powered gen sets plumbed to the big tank in case , God forbid , there was no grid…… adding to solar that would give charging assistance to the batts about 3 -4 years..That’s as far as I have been able to get so far.
50ShadesOfDirt
Solar Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2021
- Messages
- 450
OP has a grid conn, and its unlikely this could ever go away (most grids do the "hotel california" thing) ... so, might as well use it as alternate charging source (off-peak rates). OP already knows how to sort thru wiring, so have him call CurrentConnected to ask for all components of an off-grid system to power those items he wants to move off of PG&E. Example would be appropriate schematic from will's "diy solar products & system schematics" link at top menu of this forum.
Start with a small off-grid setup, single AIO & small but expandable battery-bank, and wire parallel to existing AC wiring; this also allows future homeowner to flip back to grid system. start moving loads off of grid and onto separate circuits to off-grid power. charge from grid at off-peak rates. Use system to start learning about solar. Test small like this to see if AHJ or neighbors or other contractors cause any grief.
ground-mount enough panels to support small off-grid setup, and now you are getting off of PG&E, but it's still there for backup, and, if grid is down, you have some loads still running on your off-grid system.
Alternatively, if air con is in heavy use, and represents a major portion of grid bill, investigate a dedicated solar air-con package from SolArk, or build your own, and have a parallel off-grid system providing a/c to the house. This seems to have gotten through many AHJ's, and is another way to get a portion of the load out of the grid's clutches ..
Over time, scale up the size of parallel off-grid components (linked AIO's, more batteries in battery-bank pool, more solar panels). ground-mount, or roof-mount the increasing solar panel array, once you know if AHJ's & such aren't road-blocks.
Hope this helps ...
Start with a small off-grid setup, single AIO & small but expandable battery-bank, and wire parallel to existing AC wiring; this also allows future homeowner to flip back to grid system. start moving loads off of grid and onto separate circuits to off-grid power. charge from grid at off-peak rates. Use system to start learning about solar. Test small like this to see if AHJ or neighbors or other contractors cause any grief.
ground-mount enough panels to support small off-grid setup, and now you are getting off of PG&E, but it's still there for backup, and, if grid is down, you have some loads still running on your off-grid system.
Alternatively, if air con is in heavy use, and represents a major portion of grid bill, investigate a dedicated solar air-con package from SolArk, or build your own, and have a parallel off-grid system providing a/c to the house. This seems to have gotten through many AHJ's, and is another way to get a portion of the load out of the grid's clutches ..
Over time, scale up the size of parallel off-grid components (linked AIO's, more batteries in battery-bank pool, more solar panels). ground-mount, or roof-mount the increasing solar panel array, once you know if AHJ's & such aren't road-blocks.
Hope this helps ...