diy solar

diy solar

Midnite Solar Announced their new 10kw AIO at Intersolar Today

Very much agree with Robin on this. 200A passthru to your main panel is not a good setup for real life long outages. Not only for the code requirements Robin mentions, but the hard reality of an extended grid outage brings in new problems which many who choose this route have not considered. If you are always going to be home (and awake) when the outage hits and will turn off loads so that your power use stays under your inverter's capacity, well OK. Otherwise when you get home/up you may find defrosted freezers, frozen pipes and other such problems.

Even with "smart" devices, that may not solve this problem if you are not on site. For example, our DSL goes out after ~10hours of grid outage (that's all the backup the phone co has at the local boxes). And if you have a cell modem, well most cell towers have ~20hours of batteries. If you catch and switch off things at the start of an outage, fine. Otherwise you may not get the chance.

For my money (and time) I would rather have a system with various levels of backup loads, really critical loads, somewhat critical loads, and "luxury" loads; all with the inverter in control of when these go on and off. No design is 100% bulletproof, but a system like this should handle most outages without manual intervention. At least for the first few days to weeks.

For the typical short term outages of a few hours to a day, this may not matter much. But if you ever have to deal with a long term outage of days to weeks, especially if you're not at home, it could make quite a difference.
 
I wonder if this is my best approach. I just moved into a new house, it already has a whole house generator and transfer switch installed. In the pics below you can see the generator on the left and then the meter; some sort of breaker in the middle and then the transfer switch which apparently gets the utility feed and generator feed before its output goes to the one and only main panel. I wanted to have a idea of what I wanted before going down the path of getting quotes. One caveat that makes this core complex for me is I wanted the batteries to be outside the house and was thinking of putting in a solar shed to house the batteries and inverter/s.
I have heard here in Florida that a generator must be more that 5 feet from a window or door opening, your is right under the window.
 
Very much agree with Robin on this. 200A passthru to your main panel is not a good setup for real life long outages. Not only for the code requirements Robin mentions, but the hard reality of an extended grid outage brings in new problems which many who choose this route have not considered. If you are always going to be home (and awake) when the outage hits and will turn off loads so that your power use stays under your inverter's capacity, well OK. Otherwise when you get home/up you may find defrosted freezers, frozen pipes and other such problems.

Even with "smart" devices, that may not solve this problem if you are not on site. For example, our DSL goes out after ~10hours of grid outage (that's all the backup the phone co has at the local boxes). And if you have a cell modem, well most cell towers have ~20hours of batteries. If you catch and switch off things at the start of an outage, fine. Otherwise you may not get the chance.

For my money (and time) I would rather have a system with various levels of backup loads, really critical loads, somewhat critical loads, and "luxury" loads; all with the inverter in control of when these go on and off. No design is 100% bulletproof, but a system like this should handle most outages without manual intervention. At least for the first few days to weeks.

For the typical short term outages of a few hours to a day, this may not matter much. But if you ever have to deal with a long term outage of days to weeks, especially if you're not at home, it could make quite a difference.
I'd like to hear why solark put 200A in their 15K. I believe they say it's to do exactly what we're talking about..to go between the panel and utility. Seriously, I'd be interested to hear their reasoning.
 
Not for 5 seconds or longer....lol

If they where built correctly, they would have an output transformer making them more robust and safer.
Exactly, I want to see it go toe to toe with a xp pro, radian, rosie etc on surge and continuous output.
 
Last edited:
Ryan’s response isn’t 100% correct, so I will attempt to clarify it here. The “ODM did not give us a ten year warranty. What is an “ODM?”. We are using a very established and competent manufacturer to build the ONE for us. It is our design! We cannot in the USA buy components as inexpensively as they can. Plus we have to pay at least 25% tariffs on every resistor, capacitor, PCB, transistor etc as these parts are virtually not made in the US any longer. We aren’t happy at all about that, but what can we do? We really take it in the shorts in order to manufacture the Rosie, our charge controllers and dozens of other products in Washington state where I have been designing and manufacturing electronic products since 1970. We want to build and design as much in the US as possible rather than give our technology away. I want to thank all of you who have supported us over the years. It is really important. We are the last inverter manufacturer in the US for this kind of stuff. Now back to warranties. We designed the ONE. We just don’t manufacture it in Arlington Wa. MidNite Solar is providing the second five years of warranty for the ONE. We have confidence in the product. The design and quality of the build. We have our own people that monitor production. The ONE is a grid tie inverter. We have to offer a ten year warranty by law. So, why don’t we have a ten year warranty on the Rosie? Good question! I come from the offgrid world where five year warranties have been the norm for 25 years. I guess the off-grid industry hasn’t caught up to the grid tie world yet. I will take a serious look at that though as it is a great question. I would also like to point out that having designed and or manufactured inverters at Trace Engineering, Outback, Xantrex and Magnum Energy, I and our other engineers have always tried to make indestructible inverters. Have any of you had the opportunity to see or use a Trace inverter? Chances are it was made before you were born. I am going to go out on a limb and guess that over 80% of those 30+ year old inverters still work, We have the core engineers from Trace, Outback and Magnum as well as dozens of the assemblers from these great companies here at MidNite. Our engineers do not scrimp on the designs. We design them for longevity. I can’t say that about some of the other AIO inverters out there. So, I wouldn’t be too worried about the Rosie. It is going to last just like all the other inverters I have been involved with.
Thank you,
Robin Gudgel
President
MidNite Solar
Before my Sol-Ark system, I was running an Outback Radian and supporting pieces and Flexmax charge controllers. The hardware was flawless. However, the lack of Outback is designing a model greater than 8k was a factor in my decision to let it go. I understand they can parallel. Also, the decision to stay on the low voltage charge controllers couple with their lower amperage was a hinderance. And no real closed loop support for lithium batteries was also a drawback.

If Outback came out with a 16K AIO with closed loop and high voltage mppt, I would jump all over it.

As for your 10K inverter, I am very interested in applying it to replace 2 SMA grid tie inverters. But the installation is outdoors and NEMA 4 is advantageous over 3R. Also, a fanless convection system is an advantage over cooling fans outdoors too. The new SMA hybrids have no fan. But they are currently locked to BYD batteries only.

I hope to learn more about your 10k and outdoor use.

All of my midnight solar hardware is of high quality being combiner boxes, breakers, surge arrestors and I like all of your products.
 
I had to cut out a significant portion of my 200 amp whole house write up due to the length allowed here. I would ask you to go on the MidNite Solar website for the full write up when it gets posted. It also includes a write up I found by Barry Cinnamon of Cinnamon Energy systems. Barry is a California dealer/installer. Barry did his own write up on the subject of whole house back up. I do not know Barry and have never spoken to him, but he came to the same conclusion as I and several others here have done. Whole house back up can certainly be done, but you need to go into it with your eyes open or it could cost many thousands of dollars more than you budgeted for. So, please read these full write ups and then decide for yourself.
Well, I read your post and some of it is very good. I think it is important to remember, that some folks with solar can rely on daily PV to charge their batteries and supply their loads. For those folks, the situation is not that dire. They only need batteries to support them from say 5-7 PM until 8-9 AM depending on the time of the year. And if the power is out for 14 hours, then a 60 kWh battery bank could provide about 4 kW an hour of power. So good DC ceiling fans, the internet and TV and refrigerator and an air fryer or toaster oven are a must. Remember, some persons have propane /gas hot water heaters and furnaces and even cook tops, so their loads are less. A 10 kWh inverter would do the job. I think it is most important though that an inverter support a generator input for periods of extended grid outages and 2-4 days of cloudy storms. Today, even a portable generator could output close to 10kW burning propane, nat gas or diesel. Gasoline too costly.

I would actually love it if I could remove my current panel breakers and replace them with a wifi enabled breaker that I could then power ON or OFF from my phone or web app or even by the inverter if it sensed the grid was out. I would not need a subpanel this way and could pick and choose as the situation required.
 
I have heard here in Florida that a generator must be more that 5 feet from a window or door opening, your is right under the window.
It's not just Florida. Carbon Monoxide kills and modern models include CO detectors built in and with automatic shut offs so as not to kill people. Remember, Florida is one of the last states in the Union to adopt any kind of consumer protection laws.
 
I'm glad to see more competition in the high end AIO space. 3-4 of these would serve my farm well when my current system eventually bites the dust.
 
The new MidNite AIO has a separate 60 amp gen input. That same input can also be a 60 amp smart load output. One or the other. Nobody has correctly figured out our manufacturing facility. We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them. We have put too much Time, money and IP into this company to let others use them.
 
Before my Sol-Ark system, I was running an Outback Radian and supporting pieces and Flexmax charge controllers. The hardware was flawless. However, the lack of Outback is designing a model greater than 8k was a factor in my decision to let it go. I understand they can parallel. Also, the decision to stay on the low voltage charge controllers couple with their lower amperage was a hinderance. And no real closed loop support for lithium batteries was also a drawback.

If Outback came out with a 16K AIO with closed loop and high voltage mppt, I would jump all over it.

As for your 10K inverter, I am very interested in applying it to replace 2 SMA grid tie inverters. But the installation is outdoors and NEMA 4 is advantageous over 3R. Also, a fanless convection system is an advantage over cooling fans outdoors too. The new SMA hybrids have no fan. But they are currently locked to BYD batteries only.

I hope to learn more about your 10k and outdoor use.

All of my midnight solar hardware is of high quality being combiner boxes, breakers, surge arrestors and I like all of your products.
True 2 18ks and that should be able to power all loads based on Robin’s estimates.
I still think the pass through capacity would be limited to the max on one inverter
 
The new MidNite AIO has a separate 60 amp gen input. That same input can also be a 60 amp smart load output. One or the other. Nobody has correctly figured out our manufacturing facility. We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them. We have put too much Time, money and IP into this company to let others use them.
Guessing there are some legal clauses in there as well .
Because I don’t know about many here but you can get Chinese fm80 and it says out back fm80 looks exactly the same.
These came out when Outback switched production to china.
Outback seems a bit powerless in getting this eliminated as well.
 
Guessing there are some legal clauses in there as well .
Because I don’t know about many here but you can get Chinese fm80 and it says out back fm80 looks exactly the same.
These came out when Outback switched production to china.
Outback seems a bit powerless in getting this eliminated as well.
Very little IP protection in China.
 
Nobody has correctly figured out our manufacturing facility. We need to keep that confidential as others would want to use the them. We have put too much Time, money and IP into this company to let others use them.
If I was your vendor, and I read this in a public forum, I would be unhappy with the sense of propriety expressed here. Do you really intend to suppress your vendor's ability to grow and work for others? In the long term, the more they work for others, the more they gain experience, and the better able they will be to serve you, too.

Mike C.
 
Back
Top