Feast or Famine, The off grid solar dilemma.

Mart Hale said:

I thought about that when the balloon from China went over.... They were getting ready for the nuke for EMP so having the balloon to collect the data before the real one would help them.

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Signals intellegence.
If you are talking about the big balloon, it had steering capabilities (to an extent).

I don't think it was a coincidence it went right over the areas they did have access to all cell phone traffic previously...


Remember the China made cell phone transceivers around many of those western/northern bases were pulled and replaced when spyware was found in them.

Part luck, part steering, all signals intellegence and/or delivery of malware they lost the ability to communicate with.

The balloon wasn't even close to high enough for collecting data on the magnetosphere/lay lines... We wouldn't see that one with the naked eye.

About every U.S. military base launches balloons every morning.
It's still the easiest, cheapest way to get reliable information on what the jet stream and other atmospheric conditions to determine head winds, tail winds, flight time, and if needed, corrections in computer calculations for dropping bombs from high altitude.

Those same computers figure radiation fallout patterns should the ultimate in stupidity happen, several times a day as new information comes in...

My first thought was a data up/down load and/or direct, close intellegence collection, like crystal clear pictures even with the crappy optics they have.
They can't make lenses or CCD cameras worth a crap.

Remember when Trump released a classified picture of the missle failure in Iran and the intellegence community went ape-crap?

He gave away exactly how advanced our satellite imaging resloutuon is and the bad guys were shocked!
They also adjusted camouflage to compensate so our advantage isn't so effective.

As low as that balloon was at some points, a cell phone camera would have given the same resolution as our satellites do at 300 miles up.

JeepHammer said:

Signals intellegence.
If you are talking about the big balloon, it had steering capabilities (to an extent).

I don't think it was a coincidence it went right over the areas they did have access to all cell phone traffic previously...

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/23/politics/fbi-investigation-huawei-china-defense-department-communications-nuclear/index.html

Remember the China made cell phone transceivers around many of those western/northern bases were pulled and replaced when spyware was found in them.

Part luck, part steering, all signals intellegence and/or delivery of malware they lost the ability to communicate with.

The balloon wasn't even close to high enough for collecting data on the magnetosphere/lay lines... We wouldn't see that one with the naked eye.

About every U.S. military base launches balloons every morning.
It's still the easiest, cheapest way to get reliable information on what the jet stream and other atmospheric conditions to determine head winds, tail winds, flight time, and if needed, corrections in computer calculations for dropping bombs from high altitude.

Those same computers figure radiation fallout patterns should the ultimate in stupidity happen, several times a day as new information comes in...

My first thought was a data up/down load and/or direct, close intellegence collection, like crystal clear pictures even with the crappy optics they have.
They can't make lenses or CCD cameras worth a crap.

Remember when Trump released a classified picture of the missle failure in Iran and the intellegence community went ape-crap?

He gave away exactly how advanced our satellite imaging resloutuon is and the bad guys were shocked!
They also adjusted camouflage to compensate so our advantage isn't so effective.

As low as that balloon was at some points, a cell phone camera would have given the same resolution as our satellites do at 300 miles up.

Click to expand...

you ain't lying....

JeepHammer said:

Signals intellegence.
If you are talking about the big balloon, it had steering capabilities (to an extent).

I don't think it was a coincidence it went right over the areas they did have access to all cell phone traffic previously...

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/23/politics/fbi-investigation-huawei-china-defense-department-communications-nuclear/index.html

Remember the China made cell phone transceivers around many of those western/northern bases were pulled and replaced when spyware was found in them.

Part luck, part steering, all signals intellegence and/or delivery of malware they lost the ability to communicate with.

The balloon wasn't even close to high enough for collecting data on the magnetosphere/lay lines... We wouldn't see that one with the naked eye.

About every U.S. military base launches balloons every morning.
It's still the easiest, cheapest way to get reliable information on what the jet stream and other atmospheric conditions to determine head winds, tail winds, flight time, and if needed, corrections in computer calculations for dropping bombs from high altitude.

Those same computers figure radiation fallout patterns should the ultimate in stupidity happen, several times a day as new information comes in...

My first thought was a data up/down load and/or direct, close intellegence collection, like crystal clear pictures even with the crappy optics they have.
They can't make lenses or CCD cameras worth a crap.

Remember when Trump released a classified picture of the missle failure in Iran and the intellegence community went ape-crap?

He gave away exactly how advanced our satellite imaging resloutuon is and the bad guys were shocked!
They also adjusted camouflage to compensate so our advantage isn't so effective.

As low as that balloon was at some points, a cell phone camera would have given the same resolution as our satellites do at 300 miles up.

Click to expand...

hate to break it to you, but there wasnt found to be any spyware in them, huawei even opensourced it's software , and been investigated by quite a few very capable researchers...
The reports that were out there, werent even reproducable or verifiable

Cisco and Juniper however were found to contain backdoors , and spystuff in them, notably used to spy on US allies ( Eu counsel)

houseofancients said:

hate to break it to you, but there wasnt found to be any spyware in them, huawei even opensourced it's software , and been investigated by quite a few very capable researchers...
The reports that were out there, werent even reproducable or verifiable

Cisco and Juniper however were found to contain backdoors , and spystuff in them, notably used to spy on US allies ( Eu counsel)

Snowden: The NSA planted backdoors in Cisco products

'No Place to Hide,' the new book by Glenn Greenwald, says the NSA eavesdrops on 20 billion communications a day -- and planted bugs in Cisco equipment headed overseas

www.infoworld.com

Sinister secret backdoor found in networking gear perfect for government espionage: The Chinese are – oh no, wait, it's Cisco again

Better ban this gear from non-US core networks, right?

www.theregister.com

United States intelligence operations abroad - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

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It's not breaking me, the more we know the better off we will eventually be.

I was human intelligence for the better part of 14 years in the Marines. I was trained to slide in, stay on station undetected, collect what we could and slide out undetected.

Now they have satellites to do my job of eyes on target in real time. It wouldn't surprise me if they can listen in also, and according to leaks, they do just that.

If they want to know about/keep track of my water heater failure or the issues I'm having with trying to grow an orange at 38°North, then I'm pretty sure they are bored...

Doesn't matter if I believe your links or not... We all know China, Russia and others are listening, collecting, analyzing, etc.

It's the worst kept secret in the world the NSA listens to everybody, worldwide.
Eventually China and other state actors will catch up... Right now our closest near-peer is using balloons, battalions of hackers, etc.

houseofancients said:

Cisco and Juniper however were found to contain backdoors , and spystuff in them, notably used to spy on US allies ( Eu counsel)

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Having been in the IT business for 40 years I learned many years ago not to trust Cisco. Now I own their stock because it pays good dividends and has increased in value considerably over the years, but trust them? Nope. Does that make me a hypocrite? Maybe, but I look at it as good business.

I just went through a big hassle with Cisco last week over cancelling a subscription. I cancelled it months ago and they renewed it anyway and charged my card. I had the documents to prove my case and they still didn't want to give me a refund. I finally said either that or I'll get the card company to deny the payment. So they finally gave me the refund. Not the first time I've had that happen with them but I think I'm finally done with them. Other than their stock, that is. ?

I really saw them going to hell when they went offshore with their support, but it wasn't great before then. I know, a lot of IT people love Cisco and swear by them. But not all of us.

EastTexCowboy said:

Having been in the IT business for 40 years I learned many years ago not to trust Cisco. Now I own their stock because it pays good dividends and has increased in value considerably over the years, but trust them? Nope. Does that make me a hypocrite? Maybe, but I look at it as good business.

I just went through a big hassle with Cisco last week over cancelling a subscription. I cancelled it months ago and they renewed it anyway and charged my card. I had the documents to prove my case and they still didn't want to give me a refund. I finally said either that or I'll get the card company to deny the payment. So they finally gave me the refund. Not the first time I've had that happen with them but I think I'm finally done with them. Other than their stock, that is. ?

I really saw them going to hell when they went offshore with their support, but it wasn't great before then. I know, a lot of IT people love Cisco and swear by them. But not all of us.

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unfortunatly "nobody ever got fired for buying cisco" stll holds true

Fairly decent feast day for solar production even though the Summer solstice does cut into my production due to the high sun leaving shade on some of the panels up til 1pm. It is a hit for about 2 weeks I estimate.

With the extra production I heated up some water in my HWT to do a load of dishes in the dishwasher. I being a single old guy rarely use the automatic dishwasher but now and than it is handy when I gather up enough to run a cycle so I do. Boy I am surprised how much that dishwasher pulls in power when it is actively washing (it varies from wash to rinse to refill) the thing was using over 980w! (for a long time) Couple that with the water pump needing to run, as the water tank pressure drops, and there can be some serious startup load if both hit together. My system handles it, probably helped by the max solar production at this time of day, but it is eye opening.

Never thought that a dishwasher was all that much of a power hog. And that is with the High temp wash cycle turned off and air drying. I imagine leaving those on would be really hard to cover. While true my dishwasher is 25 years old it can not be all that different with a more modern one I would think.

Mattb4 said:

Fairly decent feast day for solar production even though the Summer solstice does cut into my production due to the high sun leaving shade on some of the panels up til 1pm. It is a hit for about 2 weeks I estimate.

With the extra production I heated up some water in my HWT to do a load of dishes in the dishwasher. I being a single old guy rarely use the automatic dishwasher but now and than it is handy when I gather up enough to run a cycle so I do. Boy I am surprised how much that dishwasher pulls in power when it is actively washing (it varies from wash to rinse to refill) the thing was using over 980w! (for a long time) Couple that with the water pump needing to run, as the water tank pressure drops, and there can be some serious startup load if both hit together. My system handles it, probably helped by the max solar production at this time of day, but it is eye opening.

Never thought that a dishwasher was all that much of a power hog. And that is with the High temp wash cycle turned off and air drying. I imagine leaving those on would be really hard to cover. While true my dishwasher is 25 years old it can not be all that different with a more modern one I would think.

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My wife wanted a new dishwasher last year and she picked out a Bosch high efficiency. I just get what she points at then install it. It's pretty low consumption. I haven't put a monitor on it but just watching the chart when I know it kicks on I'd say 500-600w. And cleans better than any we've ever had.

Hasn't been much feast here lately. High consumption days with the 110-114F heat index and cloudy most of the day yesterday and until noon today. Makes for no extra. I got close to going on the grid this morning at 21% but it's back up to 70% now. When it cools off this fall I have some work to do reconfiguring a little. And maybe an EG4 18PV in the mix. If I could get full production from the panels I'd be golden but the 250v cap on these 6548s is costing me 10 to 15% during peak hours.

It's a learning experience for sure for me.

My old Frigidaire does an excellent job of getting dishes clean. Most of the stuff I read about the new dishwashers and efficiency is how much they save on water usage. Which for me is not a concern. Water I have in plentiful supply for free.

JeepHammer said:

Charge density, but return on charge input.

I battled with lead/acid and the voltage drop issue for 25+ years...

Lithium changed all that, it just took WAY too long to get through my thick head to accept that. 3X to 5X the RETURNED useable potential before voltage drops off.

It used to be enough panels to desperately try and get lead/acid back to 100% SOC so you could do extract 25%-35% of RATED Ah,

And let's not forget all the corrosion/maintiance issues, the space/weight issues, the explosive gasses issues...

With higher output panels/increased production dumped, and I do mean DUMPED, lithium readily absorbs high charge rates/faster recharging...

Lithium chemestry batteries that will readily accept the production, and then return the full rated capacity WITHOUT the 25%-35% voltage drop off, resistance losses, there is so much more USABLE capacity it's practical AND cost effective (over time)...

I'm excited to see what's next after watching every Watt for nearly 30 years!
I'm OLD, so this stuff interests/entertains me.
It's quite nice to have a 3X to 5X reserve ready and waiting... I want to see what's next!

Many of you guys can't imagine a vehicle 12 volt starting battery with a 12 month warrenty you had to pre-heat the car AND battery to get the car started in winter,
Or 6 volt 'Lantern' batteries half the size of a car battery for weak flashlights, but some of us lived through that crap...

Hell, I'm still waiting for my bionic body parts, flying cars, jet packs we were supposed to have by the 1980s... ?

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Ya mean like ole George Jetson…? Me too

Mattb4 said:

Never thought that a dishwasher was all that much of a power hog.

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1000 W is about normal for a dishwasher for the duration in which it is heating its own water. But energy (and water) consumption of modern units isn't a lot compared with washing the same load to the same level of sanitation as by hand in a kitchen sink.

This load yesterday used 730 Wh and 7 litres of water. Set to run during peak solar hours in Winter, easily covered by PV.



Many modern appliances are significantly more efficient than in decades past. Our washing machine, clothes dryer, dishwasher, fridge and TV all use a lot less energy than the units they replaced.

I have various load management strategies to try and improve self consumption of PV, and avoid consumption out of PV hours.

I might end up putting a used commercial dishwasher in my shop where my canning kitchen will be and meat processing will occur. From my memory of 25 years ago, they are a hell of a lot faster and get stuff clean clean. And I don’t live in a desert.

Jim H said:

Ya mean like ole George Jetson…? Me too

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About a year ago a friend of mine said he was going to replace his golf cart batteries. I directed him to Will's videos and he decided to get some lithium batteries. For him it was like going from listening to a radio to color TV, the change was dramatic and he said he was not going back to lead acid ;-)

Lower internal resistance in lithium batteries, and not having to refill the electrolyte sold me....

wattmatters said:

1000 W is about normal for a dishwasher for the duration in which it is heating its own water. But energy (and water) consumption of modern units isn't a lot compared with washing the same load to the same level of sanitation as by hand in a kitchen sink.

This load yesterday used 730 Wh and 7 litres of water. Set to run during peak solar hours in Winter, easily covered by PV.

View attachment 153591

Many modern appliances are significantly more efficient than in decades past. Our washing machine, clothes dryer, dishwasher, fridge and TV all use a lot less energy than the units they replaced.

I have various load management strategies to try and improve self consumption of PV, and avoid consumption out of PV hours.

Click to expand...

I have gotten to the point now that when I goto buy an appliance that I want to put a kilowatt meter on it and test it before I buy it. I prefer used because I know it has lasted this long, there is a good chance it will still work. I normally research the model before I buy so much junk on the brand new market now, sad to say.

Interesting researching dishwashers. By and large they consume a lot of energy due to the fact they are a water heater. I had thought that since the dishwasher was plumbed into the hot water from the houses hot water tank that the heating element in the bottom of my dishwasher was only used during drying if cool dry was not selected. Seems they heat the water inside up to 155F or higher (depending on if high temp wash is selected) for sanitation requirements. Most of the so called efficient dishwashers play games (it is amazing how a few degrees can reduce a year's energy consumption for the Energy Star label) with how much they heat the water and the amount they heat.

Most of the complaints that hand washing dishes is more energy intensive is due to how a lot of folks hand wash dishes. They do not practice water conservation by washing dishes together in the sink of water before rinsing them sparingly and often use towels to dry versus a rack dryer. In my case I do not use hot water for most of my dish cleanup. That and I use heavy duty paper plates for most meals (reuse them several times if not too soiled) and the same plastic cup for water and a ceramic mug for coffee that only gets washed when I do a load of dishes in the dishwasher. Silverware can be wash/rinsed in cold water after use and dried in the countertop rack. I know people that use a new glass every time they get a drink of water and insist it must go into their dishwasher!

Off grid solar and excessive running of a dishwasher can be problematic.

SilverbackMP said:

I might end up putting a used commercial dishwasher in my shop where my canning kitchen will be and meat processing will occur. From my memory of 25 years ago, they are a hell of a lot faster and get stuff clean clean. And I don’t live in a desert.

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I think the commercial dishwashers heat the water to 165F or maybe a little more to meet sanitization requirements. A lot of them are 208v. One of my bigger clients before I retired was a hospital and I remember helping them with specs on dishwashers for a couple of their kitchens. Those things were beasts and used a lot of water but they got the job done. They failed a state inspection once because the dishwasher temp wasn't high enough (and a few other things) and it was a pretty big deal, as in they were panicking to get it resolved and pass the inspection. I got involved because they came to me on just about everything, but I really didn't mind. The existing DW was so old they just replaced it then they replaced a second one later in a different kitchen. I was surprised at how much was involved in the whole process. Not like hooking up the power and hoses and tucking it under the counter.

Another solar feast today so considering that it has gotten hot outside I am running my Main room/kitchen A/C today. It is a LG 8000BTU through wall Window unit. It draws about 800w when cycled full on and drops to nothing in Energy save mode once it achieves the thermostat set point of 72F. This is the first day it has been needed in my area this year. With up til now the nights being in the low 60's and the day in the 80's it has been the latest date in the year I can remember not needing A/C. However at noon today the temperature was right at 90F outside and my indoor temperature had crept up to 74F.

After about an hour of operation (cycling on and off) I have to say it will be not much problem to carry with my PV system.

Another reasonable day of self-consumption with load management:



No dishwasher yesterday though. That gets a run today. Made a slight adjustment to my supplemental charge routine for the off-grid battery, and did an experiment with the water heater.

Mattb4 said:

Interesting researching dishwashers. By and large they consume a lot of energy due to the fact they are a water heater.

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Before replacing the old dishwasher in our house, it was plumbed to the hot water supply and used to use quite a bit more energy as a result.

In the year after replacing it our water heating energy consumption reduced by an average of 700 Wh/day. That's just the water heating energy, not including the power required to run the dishwasher. Meanwhile the current dishwasher uses an average of 330 Wh/day. So less than half the energy demand.

From a sanitation POV, dishwashers heat water much hotter than our water heater can supply.

It's been raining here for 3 days. And another week of rain is expected. Glad I added capacity recently.

timselectric said:

It's been raining here for 3 days. And another week of rain is expected. Glad I added capacity recently.

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I'll take some of that rain, please. No tornadoes, hurricanes, hail, etc., but some rain would be nice. Been cloudy in the morning for 3 days here and partly in the afternoon. Staying between the knees but just barely. Wife says just buy more batteries but I'm holding out for the inverters at the same time. But I'll have to reconfigure the panels when I do and I'm not getting on that metal roof with 116F heat index. So maybe this fall. But I still need the rain now, please. ?