Terrible Signature Solar / EG4 18Kpv Experience - Returning and Replaced with Sol-Ark 15k

Crowz said:

Short version as I understand it (Just my opinion/take on what I have read)

1. Watt's Happening buys 18kpv

2. 18kpv backfeeds to grid when its set not to and he isn't allowed to backfeed so its a BIG deal.

3. 18kpv support makes him jump thru hoops trying to fix problem.

4. Engineers from the 18kpv maker admit its a problem with the unit and not the owners fault.

5. Sig solar says its his fault even though the people who know the equipment (engineers etc) say its not his fault.

6. Some SS employees admit its not his fault and offer to pay any penalties he gets from the power company because of their product.

7. He gets accused of being a secret competitor employee for saying what he said by SS people.

8. He changes title on forum as joke on that.

9. He finally gets a refund after pages of being jerked around and called names.

10. Thru the whole thing he says equipment has future if they get the bugs worked out on the firmware.

11. SS is now on his crap list and he isn't likely to recommend them anymore but still thinks the 18kpv has a future.


Asking him if they have the firmware problem or whatever solved isn't going to happen since he doesn't have the product anymore.

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Generally speaking I would say this is accurate.

To add to it, we all make mistakes, myself included. Where I draw the line is when you cross over into blatant nonsense and calling me names etc.

Sell a product, support it, if something goes wrong do what you can to fix it, pretty simple. For me it was an eye opening experience and not one I wanted to continue to experience moving forward with the device that would ultimately be the heart of my entire house. Imagine I wasn't home and my wife had to call customer service, knowing nothing about power etc. That was a nightmare.

Hopefully they get things sorted over there on the customer service and returns side. That'll make a huge difference. Heck, I think there was another thread in this very same reviews forum from this week, similar scenario.

Watts Happening said:

No problem at all.

Again, I don't believe there was an issue with my unit. I never once thought there was and I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but they wouldn't use it for internal testing if they had any reason to believe it was defective. Heck, you'd have some REALLY dumb people to use a defective unit for development right? I have my gripes with them over this, but by no means do I think they're anywhere near that stupid.

The issues I had were issues others had, it was mostly related to back feeding the grid when it was not supposed to backfeed. That has since been changed via firmware, thus like I said it would likely suit you well.

If you were using the unit off grid, with no grid input, you would have never seen the issues I had. If you were using the unit grid connected and had an interconnect agreement (allowing your inverter to backfeed the grid for credit from the power company) you would have never noticed nor cared. It would have backfed and you'd have received credit for it, no big deal either way.

The black and white of it is this: they were shipped with immature software and the company did some dumb things on the customer service side of things. As I've repeated, go into it expecting to have a bumpy road on the support side of things and I think you'll be just fine. Beyond that it's a real nice unit, if you read everything you'll remember me saying I think it has as good of, or better build quality than the Sol-Ark. I actually prefer it's wire box to the Sol-Ark.

I don't have anything to sell you and it's bummer they must have deleted their accusations. I'll update my title to something funnier.

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Thank you.... I guess the backfeeding thing was the main issue...and that would definitely be an issue in my case as I don't want to sell power to the utility company!

I'm still quite concerned about the customer support but as mentioned they do seem to be active on this forum at least...that's a positive but doesn't necessarily mean they have good Customer Support Policies/etc.

As I said thank you for an entertaining and informative thread. Appreciated.

re: exporting to grid.

I found something called "guerilla net metering". Apparently we all are led to believe there's something the power companies do that allow you to connect. This is not true in some case.

I don't recommend doing without asking.

The power company guy said if the meter has the number 201 then it's a one way meter. It just spins forward regardless of the direction of the current. So you'll get punished if you export.

Otherwise, some meters will happily spin backward and no formal permission is needed - thus "guerilla".

I suspect the 'Smart Meters' like I have will not work that way... :0

G00SE said:

Literally every single 18kpv issue on this forum is answered with “can I remote in and change your settings for the firmware”

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This is a new to market and very complex piece of equipment, it's not your dumb hammer or duct tape type device. There are a lot of people buying this and indeed solar equipment in general that should not be touching the stuff. This is my opinion. ?

Kenny_ said:

I'm still quite concerned about the customer support but as mentioned they do seem to be active on this forum at least...that's a positive but doesn't necessarily mean they have good Customer Support Policies/etc.

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Them doing quite a lot of customer support on this forum is a double-edged sword. The good thing is many of us have used various products successfully and can help newer users and there are hundreds of us as opposed to maybe a dozen in their office.

Quattrohead said:

This is a new to market and very complex piece of equipment, it's not your dumb hammer or duct tape type device. There are a lot of people buying this and indeed solar equipment in general that should not be touching the stuff. This is my opinion. ?

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I believe you've said this before, and I told you then, Signature Solar and others should not be selling it to them then. They don't get to take the money, and not plow the driveway. They made their bed, they can lie in it. I'm sure we can all think of tons more.

Quattrohead said:

This is a new to market and very complex piece of equipment, it's not your dumb hammer or duct tape type device. There are a lot of people buying this and indeed solar equipment in general that should not be touching the stuff. This is my opinion. ?

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I understand where you're coming from, but this would be like buying a hammer that is advertised as having a claw that can pull nails, when in reality it can't.

Or duct tape that doesn't stick to ducts.

It's seen a lot of improvement, let's celebrate that. Let's also not forget the reality of the support myself and many others have received and documented. The ball is in their court, they can improve, they just have to make it a priority over expansion and sales. It's easy to see from the outside, hard to implement from the inside when you're hard at work every day.

Quattrohead said:

This is a new to market and very complex piece of equipment, it's not your dumb hammer or duct tape type device. There are a lot of people buying this and indeed solar equipment in general that should not be touching the stuff. This is my opinion. ?

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It’s a fair opinion.

G00SE said:

It’s a fair opinion. Also one that I’ll probably never agree with.
Their historical actions don’t promote the belief that everything is caused by the operator. (I know that’s not what you implied)
The eg4 8k is a perfect example. the eg4 6500 is a perfect example. The eg4 6000ex is a perfect example.
Continuing to sell products that they discontinued for obvious reasons is an example
James stating a big announcement is coming, and then missed by weeks is an example.
A follow up saying oh for real it’ll be the 16th, and then a day later it’s “delayed” is an example
Not having UL stickers for nearly a month after being advertised when they’d be available is an example

Promoting a functionality, having it not work, and then blaming the customer, even accusing them is a perfect example.

All of the above issues could have been resolved by simple patience and effective business management instead of rushing to be first to market and then acting like a petulant child when people are deservingly upset.

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Thus rule #37

Kenny_ said:

That's not what I mean... I'm talking about FIRMWARE changes not USER adjustments.

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My experience is the EG4 units are sent out to customers. Once problems are identified, they will come out with a firmware update to try and fix those problems. Doesn't matter which unit, every unit seems to require a firmware update after release to the public, sometimes it is multiple firmware updates.

Sometimes it fixes the problem, other times it makes it worse. Meanwhile, the end user deals with the fallout.

Interesting anecdote, originally I purchased a pair of MPP LV6548's but did not install the units. I decided I wanted higher VOC voltage and purchased a pair of EG4 6500EX's. Each firmware update I did made the problems worse. If you look on my Youtube channel you will see the scope recordings of these units. EG4 agreed to RMA the units and I had to send the units back and once they received my original units, they would send replacements. I installed the LV6548's while I waited for replacements. I sent the units back and had UPS notify me when the units hit the EG4 doorstep.

The LV6548's worked perfect. I was limited on the VOC and could only use 1/2 of my array. 3 weeks went by after EG4 received the units. Not a single word from them. I finally had to privately message an employee thru this forum to see why I never was shipped anything back. It was only then they sent replacements. A few days later the units arrived, I installed them and had ground voltage issues. Did the firmware updates, still was seeing some problems. At night, the lights were flickering, I went down to take some measurements, nothing conclusive and I decided I would look at it again the next day. Upon turning off the basement lights. the lights would glow with the light switch off. WTF?

I had enough, I flipped the manual transfer switch back to grid power. The next day, I pulled the EG4's back off the wall and installed the LV6548's back in. They have worked flawlessly. And still have the original firmware installed.

What is the difference between the 2 units? Good question as the 6500EX was made by Voltronic and the LV6548's are also. It reminds me of Walmart selling tires, Walmart goes to a supplier, tells the supplier what they are willing to pay per tire and it is a take it or leave it proposal. So the supplier runs the numbers, figures they can fudge some things here and there and be able to make a profit on the tire at the low price offered. In other words, corners get cut to get a lower priced product. The only company that can purchase that tire made to those specs is Walmart. Is this what happened with the 6500EX? Possibly, there are some differences such as VOC rating so not all components are the same. Firmware is different too.

Whether you want to be the end user in such a scenario is your decision. I can tell you there are more parts to my story. In all, I spent about 100 hours looking for a cause of the problems I experienced along with some more money out of my pocket trying to eliminate any possible cause. Yet, installing a different inverter with no other changes I did not experience those problems. Be aware the firmware updates to the 18Kpv unit are not done yet, it still is a work in progress, just like other products sold.

Zwy said:

My experience is the EG4 units are sent out to customers. Once problems are identified, they will come out with a firmware update to try and fix those problems. Doesn't matter which unit, every unit seems to require a firmware update after release to the public, sometimes it is multiple firmware updates.

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Oh Yeah, I understand that ... many such products/etc....

Thanks

So my thoughts on all this and the "Is there always a sale at SS" thread are this...

I'm gonna standby for a while... keep testing/evaluating my partial replacement using the Ecoflow Delta Pro, continue to look at various products etc. and see where we go from there.

G00SE said:

Specify what changes?
Literally every single 18kpv issue on this forum is answered with “can I remote in and change your settings for the firmware”
With that, how would most end users actually even know how to answer this question

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I dunno, A number of changes have been discussed. Earlier firmware had severe issues adapting to rapid load shifts. Its not perfect by any means but the lights no longer go completely off. The grid export issues have all been addressed and corrected AFAIK. I had some off-grid issues that caused the software to fail to charge the batteries when an odd combination of events all happened at the same time. This has hopefully been fixed. I think there is still confusion on how all the settings interact. I've noticed the web site Maintenance page has improved, and appears more clear as to what several of the parameters mean. Manual is still awful. I think lack of clarity on how some of the parms work in various scenarios is the biggest problem. I think the product is still new, but if you are not trying to get creative with the settings it works just fine. The parallel management is still not that great. Support from the forums is good, telephone, not so much. Good help is hard to find these days.

ksmithaz1 said:

I dunno, A number of changes have been discussed. Earlier firmware had severe issues adapting to rapid load shifts. Its not perfect by any means but the lights no longer go completely off. The grid export issues have all been addressed and corrected AFAIK. I had some off-grid issues that caused the software to fail to charge the batteries when an odd combination of events all happened at the same time. This has hopefully been fixed. I think there is still confusion on how all the settings interact. I've noticed the web site Maintenance page has improved, and appears more clear as to what several of the parameters mean. Manual is still awful. I think lack of clarity on how some of the parms work in various scenarios is the biggest problem. I think the product is still new, but if you are not trying to get creative with the settings it works just fine. The parallel management is still not that great. Support from the forums is good, telephone, not so much. Good help is hard to find these days.

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I would agree with that.

I don’t mean this as a dig towards the 18k, nor a vote for the 15k, but the following is absolutely true as of this very moment.

The documentation and ability to understand how each setting interacts with others, is vastly more refined for the Sol-Ark, as is their customer services ability to articulate and assist in making those changes.

I’m sure given a few years the 18k will be there. The 15k wasn’t released this year, so that obviously plays into it.

It’s just a reality you have to understand and accept when making a purchase here and how. So long as your specific setup is well understood by other users, I think you outta be fine. If you’re going to be leaning on support, I’d 110% suggest going through Current Connected.

I made a point a while back, the 18K firmware is likely not going to be stable until Q1or Q2/2024. They'll get there. If you want to be an early adopter it comes with some rough patches. Of course I've never bought a motherboard that needed a bios upgrade to run the cpu I bought, but I can't update the bios without getting hold of an older version of the CPU to boot the board and do the upgrade. Or have I? First thing you should do with any equipment like this is upgrade the firmware before you put it in production. Generally a good thing to learn how to do right from the get go. In the mean time, I'll wait for the feature fixes and upgrades while they get all the little edge cases worked out.

ksmithaz1 said:

I made a point a while back, the 18K firmware is likely not going to be stable until Q1or Q2/2024. They'll get there. If you want to be an early adopter it comes with some rough patches. Of course I've never bought a motherboard that needed a bios upgrade to run the cpu I bought, but I can't update the bios without getting hold of an older version of the CPU to boot the board and do the upgrade. Or have I? First thing you should do with any equipment like this is upgrade the firmware before you put it in production. Generally a good thing to learn how to do right from the get go. In the mean time, I'll wait for the feature fixes and upgrades while they get all the little edge cases worked out.

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I so badly wish all manufacturers of all products would adopt dead simple firmware numbering conventions.

Whether that be 1, 2, 3

Or date based, 10.17.23 or something similar, god do I hate 7E34C2 or the like.

Watts Happening said:

It’s just a reality you have to understand and accept when making a purchase here and how. So long as your specific setup is well understood by other users, I think you outta be fine. If you’re going to be leaning on support, I’d 110% suggest going through Current Connected.

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Just taking a look cause I'm still interested in that new EG4 18Kpv and Powerpro batteries.... wow! They want $1350 for shipping while Signature Solar has free shipping for the next couple of weeks! A significant $$ discount.

Kenny_ said:

Just taking a look cause I'm still interested in that new EG4 18Kpv and Powerpro batteries.... wow! They want $1350 for shipping while Signature Solar has free shipping for the next couple of weeks! A significant $$ discount.

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Yeah, that’s tough

Well, this has been a long read as I've read the entire thread from #1 to #779.

I'm not young. I have been working with electrical power equipment, distributors and manufactures longer than many of you have been alive, since the mid 70's. That doesn't mean I know everything, but I have a lot of experience. I am now a software and controls contractor, probably very much like Watts Happening, but just a bit older.

Lux power needs to grab a hold of Signature Solar and do some shaking. Serious shaking! Their customer support and customer interaction (even in public!) is abysmal. If I was running Signature Solar, I would have some of their spokespeople relinquish their log on credentials to email and internet access and show them to a broom and a new pay schedule. They know who they are!

I can relate to Watts Happening. As a contractor with a real business, I can probably buy a Sol Ark significantly cheaper than retail if I dig into it. That doesn't make me a distributor! If you have a company, you can do things you can't do as a retail buyer. I can buy equipment at a discount and resell it. That's doesn't make me a distributor or shill. That makes me a contractor.

Support on smart devices, like these inverters is extremely important obviously. The support attempt here by Signature Solar was again, abysmal.

Anyway, as a newbie to home solar systems, I won't be buying much from Signature Solar with any expectation of support. Signature Solar is like Walmart. You can buy it. I may or may not work. Just make sure you buy it with a credit card so you can force a return if needed.

In the industrial controls and power world there are a few different classes of distributors. They is the big box distributor. These guys sell boxes that contain equipment and when it breaks, you don't bother to call the distributor because they are worthless technically. They won't call you back. Emails are returned after days of waiting. But they are cheap because they don't provide a reasonable level of support.

Then there are distributors that provide a midrange of support. Most people will be happy with them, but if anything really complicated like this OP suffered occurs, they fall back to manufacturer support.

Then there is the engineering/system houses that will sell parts and equipment but can also diagnose and solve very complex problems with little to no help from the manufacturer. Yes, they are more expensive, but they are true experts in what they sell.
I've been fortunate enough to work with all of these types of distributors as a manufactures engineer and salesman in the past.

Signature Solar would like to be a big box distributor, but they suck at support and sales. In this situation, they have slandered their customer (in public!!!) rather than deal in a respectful manner. Their best technical support seems to be in Germany!?!? All of this adds up to a grade of "horrible" from me.

I suspect there are other ways to buy Lux Power inverters. I'm at this forum because I need to learn who the players are. This thread has been VERY informative. If you are in the market to buy solar equipment, you should read this entire thread. Its taken me hours. But it has been very worthwhile! Thanks Will Prowse for maintaining this forum! Lux Power, Signature Solar, you know what has to be done! Do it!