Watch out! Shes going to have more questions for you.......
Can't get enough power from my newpowa panels
- Thread starter Abby Smith
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Newpowa_Jarad
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@Abby Smith
3. 400w only output 250w at max in Feb, Washington
Quick answers: Why is it so cold in winter? The radiation from sun, it keeps our earth warm.
Here is the link with the radiation map, as you can see right now in Washington, radiation everyday is 0-2 kwh/m²/day.
If you check the radiation in August, you will see the average for everyday is 4-5 kwh/m²/day.
See the difference? And be noted that this is per day, not every hour. These number means you will get double sunlights in a day and your solar system will charge up to 100% faster in summer in a day.
But it does not mean you will get double the wattage in summer, the wattage you see is related to the peak radiation, peak radiation does not double.
The daylight hours is much longer, this helps the total radiation in a day from the sun.
The solar PV modules are subjected to a solar radiation of 1000 W/m², a module temperature of 25°C and an air mass coefficient of 1.5.
Here the radiation unit is not per day, its per hour.
Couple days ago, i have another customer asking similar questions. I will copy here so you can do the math on your own.
"So right now in AZ, average 4-5kwh/m²/day in Febuary. Ok, you mentioned there are plenty sun. So lets say it has 5kwh/m²/day.
How many sunny hours per day right now? 11hours right? So the average in hours is 5kwh/m²/day over 11hours, which is 454w/m².
The solar PV modules are subjected to a solar radiation of 1000 W/m², a module temperature of 25°C and an air mass coefficient of 1.5.
So the average output right now for a 70w is 31.78w(70*454/1000) , thats an average accosting the whole day, so during the morning you get less maybe 5w and during the noon you get more thats 40w-45w."
3. 400w only output 250w at max in Feb, Washington
Quick answers: Why is it so cold in winter? The radiation from sun, it keeps our earth warm.
Here is the link with the radiation map, as you can see right now in Washington, radiation everyday is 0-2 kwh/m²/day.
If you check the radiation in August, you will see the average for everyday is 4-5 kwh/m²/day.
See the difference? And be noted that this is per day, not every hour. These number means you will get double sunlights in a day and your solar system will charge up to 100% faster in summer in a day.
But it does not mean you will get double the wattage in summer, the wattage you see is related to the peak radiation, peak radiation does not double.
The daylight hours is much longer, this helps the total radiation in a day from the sun.
The solar PV modules are subjected to a solar radiation of 1000 W/m², a module temperature of 25°C and an air mass coefficient of 1.5.
Here the radiation unit is not per day, its per hour.
Couple days ago, i have another customer asking similar questions. I will copy here so you can do the math on your own.
"So right now in AZ, average 4-5kwh/m²/day in Febuary. Ok, you mentioned there are plenty sun. So lets say it has 5kwh/m²/day.
How many sunny hours per day right now? 11hours right? So the average in hours is 5kwh/m²/day over 11hours, which is 454w/m².
The solar PV modules are subjected to a solar radiation of 1000 W/m², a module temperature of 25°C and an air mass coefficient of 1.5.
So the average output right now for a 70w is 31.78w(70*454/1000) , thats an average accosting the whole day, so during the morning you get less maybe 5w and during the noon you get more thats 40w-45w."
The average daily peak sun hours for a given location is applied to your published power ratings in watts in order for us to select and make use of the product.
I am at Michigan, about middle of the region for location. Winter average irradiance levels for the day have little to do with a module making its peak power sometime in that day.
Array 1 and 2, 1200W each will bang 1350-1375W at 35° tilt, we are at 43ish° and in a 1.5 peak sun hour season......
We are closer to the sun at this time of year. Here, we have way less moisture and particulates, clear sky and this coincides with ultra low temperatures.
Washington has some major difference in atmospheric quality, but on an observed clear day we should still expect a decent output.
Obviously it always a bad arguement as none of us is likely to have a pyronometer or irradiance meter (some do) to to take measurements and evaluate pv modules.
Some modules are just unlikely to perform near nameplate in favorable real world conditions.
I am at Michigan, about middle of the region for location. Winter average irradiance levels for the day have little to do with a module making its peak power sometime in that day.
Array 1 and 2, 1200W each will bang 1350-1375W at 35° tilt, we are at 43ish° and in a 1.5 peak sun hour season......
We are closer to the sun at this time of year. Here, we have way less moisture and particulates, clear sky and this coincides with ultra low temperatures.
Washington has some major difference in atmospheric quality, but on an observed clear day we should still expect a decent output.
Obviously it always a bad arguement as none of us is likely to have a pyronometer or irradiance meter (some do) to to take measurements and evaluate pv modules.
Some modules are just unlikely to perform near nameplate in favorable real world conditions.
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Newpowa_Jarad
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@Abby Smith
Yes, i run newpowa.
As for the real output between different brands, honestly we didn't compare all the brands on the market, so we cannot tell. What i can tell is different brands have their own tolerance range.
Most brand is within ±3%, some are ±5% which is out of the line. And yes, there are ±10%, -10% to be accurate, a few.
Ours is within ±3%, i am trying to push the manufacture to get all panels with positive tolerance. You will lose a bit when you cut the solar cells, so not every panel can be exact at 100w.
Above data are for brands that has a history, not something that came with no brand, or some brand showed up for a year or two and disappeared.
For some non branded panels, i have seen 10w marked as 20w or 30w. 80w flexible marked as 200w?
Yes, i run newpowa.
As for the real output between different brands, honestly we didn't compare all the brands on the market, so we cannot tell. What i can tell is different brands have their own tolerance range.
Most brand is within ±3%, some are ±5% which is out of the line. And yes, there are ±10%, -10% to be accurate, a few.
Ours is within ±3%, i am trying to push the manufacture to get all panels with positive tolerance. You will lose a bit when you cut the solar cells, so not every panel can be exact at 100w.
Above data are for brands that has a history, not something that came with no brand, or some brand showed up for a year or two and disappeared.
For some non branded panels, i have seen 10w marked as 20w or 30w. 80w flexible marked as 200w?
KauaiMolokai
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Hi Jarad,
You're a responsible person to come on here and discuss your products.
If I understand Abby correctly I think she is saying she bought four 100W Newpowa panels and the maximum wattage she has ever seen has been 250W instead of close to 400W
I also note that in comments from the Amazon seller that 70-80W is the maximum that can be expected from a 100W panel, so 280-320W max. 250 is quite a bit less than this but not totally out of line considering the latitude and season.
However, a buyer of four 100W panels could "reasonably" expect to see close to 400W at some point (unless they know a lot about reality vs advertised panel wattage)
Can you identify whether you sold these panels on eBay/Amazon or if some reseller sold them?
Can you identify whether these are B or C class Newpowa panels which were sold by the reseller (or Newpowa) as A class?
Can you determine whether these panels were actually 100W or did the reseller (or Newpowa) market and sell them incorrectly?
From your responses already I would assume you - Newpowa - did not sell these panels directly, but they were sold by a reseller.
Unfortunately this reseller (?) is selling and possibly misrepresenting your panels, so while Abby has a product which does not meet her expectations, many readers are seeing that this is a substandard Newpowa product which creates a larger problem for you.
It would be helpful for all of us to be able to understand exactly how this supply chain - from Newpowa to Abby - worked. From your earlier responses you are clearly aware of quality/efficiency/and having a solid reputation.
Again, you are brave (and smart) to come on here.
I posted then edited after re-reading the initial postings in this thread.
You're a responsible person to come on here and discuss your products.
If I understand Abby correctly I think she is saying she bought four 100W Newpowa panels and the maximum wattage she has ever seen has been 250W instead of close to 400W
I also note that in comments from the Amazon seller that 70-80W is the maximum that can be expected from a 100W panel, so 280-320W max. 250 is quite a bit less than this but not totally out of line considering the latitude and season.
However, a buyer of four 100W panels could "reasonably" expect to see close to 400W at some point (unless they know a lot about reality vs advertised panel wattage)
Can you identify whether you sold these panels on eBay/Amazon or if some reseller sold them?
Can you identify whether these are B or C class Newpowa panels which were sold by the reseller (or Newpowa) as A class?
Can you determine whether these panels were actually 100W or did the reseller (or Newpowa) market and sell them incorrectly?
From your responses already I would assume you - Newpowa - did not sell these panels directly, but they were sold by a reseller.
Unfortunately this reseller (?) is selling and possibly misrepresenting your panels, so while Abby has a product which does not meet her expectations, many readers are seeing that this is a substandard Newpowa product which creates a larger problem for you.
It would be helpful for all of us to be able to understand exactly how this supply chain - from Newpowa to Abby - worked. From your earlier responses you are clearly aware of quality/efficiency/and having a solid reputation.
Again, you are brave (and smart) to come on here.
I posted then edited after re-reading the initial postings in this thread.
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Hmmm, zero calorie pizza... ??
I'm probably not as cleverererer as you from an engineering perspective, but I thought efficiency was all about energy in v energy out, that is, the sun's energy from photons, v resulting electrical energy. I believe consumer-level monocrystaline PV panels are about 21% efficient in this conversion and, last I heard, they've achieved 51% efficiency in the lab (very clever the way they achieved this, btw, worth a look). Not sure how this relates to simple area calculations. But I am quite dumb, all things considered.
I live at around 56o (Northern England) and, after playing with PV panels for a number of years now, my rule of thumb is 80% rated output in Summer, 20% in Winter no matter what panels I use. Also, I don't think you can use Voc as an accurate indicator of efficiency, I don't know, I've always found it to be unreliable. Power out, yes, absolutely. That's why Will always uses a power meter in his tests.
Kudos to @Newpowa_Jarad for answering forum questions and sharing his thoughts. Big, huge, tick in my book.
Voltage alone doesnt tell us anything. I find it astounding people on a solar forum are "shocked" when they hear 30% inefficiency. back to the basics.
Again, 250w from 400w panels in washington in febuary is NORMAL. go ahead and buy other brands and see for yourself.
Cables have resistence. Batteries dont charge at 12v, they charge at 14.6v+, youre mppt controller has inefficiencies, your controller is only dropping to about 15.6v/max charge voltage, your fuse blocks have resistence. The sun is going through alot more atmosphere in winter so even on a perfect day it has less strength.
You'll get better in summer. Dont worry. Youll get 2.4 - 2.6kwh a day.
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SolarRat
Solar Addict
Panels can output near their rated voltage with a flashlight shining on them at night...but there wont be many watts. You can't go by voltage.
I'm at 63 degrees north. I have a 10kW array. Today was a really sunny, cold winter day. I got 2 to 3kW out of them around noon for a total of around 10kWh or so for the day. That's pretty normal efficiency for solar panels for this time of the year on a sunny day.
Only -3C (26F) here. Wish it was a proper winter; we should be much lower this time of the year...
Abby Smith
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I've alreayd bought some other panels, 4 to be exact, and I'm gonna test them and compare.
I'm not as confident as will is, so I won't be posting any videos, but I'll let you guys know the results.
Jared from Newpowa, where are you located? Are you in Asia or in the US?
I'm not as confident as will is, so I won't be posting any videos, but I'll let you guys know the results.
Jared from Newpowa, where are you located? Are you in Asia or in the US?
Newpowa_Jarad
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@KauaiMolokai
So if you go through all my posts above, i have mentioned that all the manufacture use STC standards for solar wattage rating, which is
"solar radiation of 1000 W/m², a module temperature of 25°C and an air mass coefficient of 1.5."
So a 100w solar panel does have different output in different locations, temperate and weather conditions. And in some location, you may see the real performance outperform the rated wattage. Example, in Australia, there is a chance that you will see 105w from a 100w solar panel. See link below, most area get over 2000kwh/m² a year.
commons.wikimedia.org
If you check the radiation map in States, only the area in South CA, AZ, NM and TX can get that value.
commons.wikimedia.org
In Illinois, a 100w rated solar panel will be 80w at max in most summer days. (I lived in Illinois for couple years)
In Southern California where we have the office, i can probably get close to 80w in winter from a 100w panel, and in summer the number can go up to 90w in real world.
So quick question, what wattage should we rate this 100w"STC standards"?
1. Rate it at 80w for Washington customer, and change it to 65w in winter.
2. Then a Arizona customer stop by, we gonna sell it as 100w in summer, and 75w in winter.
3. And another customer comes in bought the same panel, he said ok, i am going to use it in California during the Winter, and we will drive our RV back to New York in Summer. Maybe this time we should sell as 100w?
Imaging what will happen when these customers met, i guess they will all be mad!
Not everyone will read at this forum and figure out whats going on by themselves, and we do not have enough time&sources to educate all the customers or potential customers.
So a standard is necessary, it keeps the market in order. Like the law for our society.
I want to stay neutral, i am here to answer questions. Not here to do advertisement. But yes, we sell direct on Amazon, we have distributors as well on different channels.
So if you go through all my posts above, i have mentioned that all the manufacture use STC standards for solar wattage rating, which is
"solar radiation of 1000 W/m², a module temperature of 25°C and an air mass coefficient of 1.5."
So a 100w solar panel does have different output in different locations, temperate and weather conditions. And in some location, you may see the real performance outperform the rated wattage. Example, in Australia, there is a chance that you will see 105w from a 100w solar panel. See link below, most area get over 2000kwh/m² a year.
File:SolarGIS-Solar-map-Australia-en.png - Wikimedia Commons
If you check the radiation map in States, only the area in South CA, AZ, NM and TX can get that value.
File:SolarGIS-Solar-map-USA-en.png - Wikimedia Commons
In Illinois, a 100w rated solar panel will be 80w at max in most summer days. (I lived in Illinois for couple years)
In Southern California where we have the office, i can probably get close to 80w in winter from a 100w panel, and in summer the number can go up to 90w in real world.
So quick question, what wattage should we rate this 100w"STC standards"?
1. Rate it at 80w for Washington customer, and change it to 65w in winter.
2. Then a Arizona customer stop by, we gonna sell it as 100w in summer, and 75w in winter.
3. And another customer comes in bought the same panel, he said ok, i am going to use it in California during the Winter, and we will drive our RV back to New York in Summer. Maybe this time we should sell as 100w?
Imaging what will happen when these customers met, i guess they will all be mad!
Not everyone will read at this forum and figure out whats going on by themselves, and we do not have enough time&sources to educate all the customers or potential customers.
So a standard is necessary, it keeps the market in order. Like the law for our society.
I want to stay neutral, i am here to answer questions. Not here to do advertisement. But yes, we sell direct on Amazon, we have distributors as well on different channels.
Abby Smith
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@Newpowa_Jarad
Thanks for the response, but I want to see how your panels that are same technology (poly) compare to same rated panels like renogy, windynation, RichSolar,.. etc.
Also, can you publish STC test results and who/how they were done for your panels?
My apologies in advance for being so straight forward, but how do I know that these are not just some made up numbers?
Anyone interested in my Oreo cookies ice-cream, absolutely sugar free, fat free, and zero calories, YUM!!!
Thanks for the response, but I want to see how your panels that are same technology (poly) compare to same rated panels like renogy, windynation, RichSolar,.. etc.
Also, can you publish STC test results and who/how they were done for your panels?
My apologies in advance for being so straight forward, but how do I know that these are not just some made up numbers?
Anyone interested in my Oreo cookies ice-cream, absolutely sugar free, fat free, and zero calories, YUM!!!Newpowa_Jarad
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@KauaiMolokai
And the max 250w results from 400w, is not the panel's real output.
Controller, cables and batteries have been used in this system.
1. If a MPPT controller keeps delivering more than 90% of the solar inputs, it means this is a very good controller. @Abby Smith A lot of our customers use victron as well, personally i have never tried one. And there are a lot of other controller brands from the US.
2. Cables, the longer cable you lose more power, but not that much in percentage compare to controller.
3. Batteries: Battery has internal resistant, and the resistant goes up followed by the voltage.
When the battery is almost full, controller will not allow full power from panel goes into battery.
So test them when the battery is almost empty.
As for the solar cells grading, we use all Grade A. You may find more details with the link below.
sinovoltaics.com
And the max 250w results from 400w, is not the panel's real output.
Controller, cables and batteries have been used in this system.
1. If a MPPT controller keeps delivering more than 90% of the solar inputs, it means this is a very good controller. @Abby Smith A lot of our customers use victron as well, personally i have never tried one. And there are a lot of other controller brands from the US.
2. Cables, the longer cable you lose more power, but not that much in percentage compare to controller.
3. Batteries: Battery has internal resistant, and the resistant goes up followed by the voltage.
When the battery is almost full, controller will not allow full power from panel goes into battery.
So test them when the battery is almost empty.
As for the solar cells grading, we use all Grade A. You may find more details with the link below.
Solar cell grading (A, B, C, D)
Why do manufacturers use lower grade quality solar cells? Solar cells come in different quality grades (A, B, C, D). Learn more about solar cell grading.
sinovoltaics.com
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KauaiMolokai
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Hi Jarad,
That is an amazing, excellent, perfectly clear explanation. I learned a lot from you in this! It also is more credit to you that you respond here. Bravo!
Everyone benefits from greater knowledge and information, although alas some less scrupulous people use their greater knowledge to deceive others. And some associations resist standards which are really informative. I'm impressed to see that this does not apply to you!
Ideally, in my opinion, based upon your great explanation, ALL PV panels should clearly state XXX Watt per STC standards. eg "100w STC standard power" And then the fine print could say: pv wattage is stated per STC standards which include solar radiation of 1000 W/m², a module temperature of 25°C and an air mass coefficient of 1.5. Your results will depend upon your own local factors where the panel is used.
Certainly many consumers would ignore or not read this, just as many do not read a lot of serious warnings on other items, but for those who care it would give them a starting point to set their expectations.
Thank you again. You definitely validated my statement that manufacturers in general are not looking to rip people off.
That is an amazing, excellent, perfectly clear explanation. I learned a lot from you in this! It also is more credit to you that you respond here. Bravo!
Everyone benefits from greater knowledge and information, although alas some less scrupulous people use their greater knowledge to deceive others. And some associations resist standards which are really informative. I'm impressed to see that this does not apply to you!
Ideally, in my opinion, based upon your great explanation, ALL PV panels should clearly state XXX Watt per STC standards. eg "100w STC standard power" And then the fine print could say: pv wattage is stated per STC standards which include solar radiation of 1000 W/m², a module temperature of 25°C and an air mass coefficient of 1.5. Your results will depend upon your own local factors where the panel is used.
Certainly many consumers would ignore or not read this, just as many do not read a lot of serious warnings on other items, but for those who care it would give them a starting point to set their expectations.
Thank you again. You definitely validated my statement that manufacturers in general are not looking to rip people off.
KauaiMolokai
Solar Enthusiast
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- Dec 25, 2019
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@KauaiMolokai
And the max 250w results from 400w, is not the panel's real output.
Controller, cables and batteries has been used in this system.
1. If a MPPT controller keeps delivering more than 90% of the solar inputs, it means this is a very good controller. @Abby Smith A lot of our customers use victron as well, personally i have never tried one. And there are a lot of other controller brands from the US.
2. Cables, the longer cable you lose more power, but not that much in percentage compare to controller.
3. Batteries: Battery has internal resistant, and the resistant goes up followed by the voltage.
When the battery is almost full, controller will not allow full power from panel go into battery.
So test them when the battery is almost empty.
As for the solar cells grading, we use all Grade A. You may find more details with the link below.
Solar cell grading (A, B, C, D)
Why do manufacturers use lower grade quality solar cells? Solar cells come in different quality grades (A, B, C, D). Learn more about solar cell grading.
Thanks, I copy this also. Great!
