CA's new tax on solar

[G20]

That one has been shelved. It was an interesting band aid for the solar cost shift effects but everyone seems to agree it was too distorted. That's how we got the Income Graduated Fixed Charge instead which is not based on solar or system size.

According to "Two Bit di Vinci", it appears to be a variation of the "2 Card Monty" short con. Money is fungible, put it in one pocket, pull it out of the other. Here they are taking it out of the customer's grid-tie returns. The more solar customers produce, the more solar customers lose. You can either increase prices or reduce returns. The "net 3.0" result is the same, the dealer wins.

 

[hwy17]

The more solar customers produce, the more solar customers lose.

I'm not really sure what you think they're losing. The ACC rate credits solar exports at their realistic value. No more using the grid as a free battery.

 

[G20]

I'm not really sure what you think they're losing. The ACC rate credits solar exports at their realistic value. No more using the grid as a free battery.

You obviously didn't watch the video that quantifies what is lost in great detail.

 

[hwy17]

You obviously didn't watch the video that quantifies what is lost in great detail.

I'm quite deeply familiar with all the developments so I'm not going to watch a whole summary, maybe point me to the segment.

If you mean "lost" as compared to NEM 1 and 2. Yes 1 and 2 were massive incentive/subsidy rate designs. We can't afford to subsidize at those levels anymore so people are going to have to "lose" them. The grandfathering period is already a very generous concession.

 

[G20]

I'm quite deeply familiar with all the developments so I'm not going to watch a whole summary, maybe point me to the segment.

Thanks for the confirmation of ignoring relevant information offered before your eyes.

You might want to watch it because he also comments on flat rates. Put it on 2X speed if you wish and watch the first quarter for the most relevant portions of the video. He shows a direct correlation between the size of a grid tie system and the directional change of funds (3 Card Monty) to the dealer. Again, you can raise rates or reduce returns, the effect is the same by playing both sides of the balance sheet.

 

[hwy17]

You're going to get better value out of self consuming than exporting on NEM3+ so yeah, it makes sense that larger system size = more exports = lower value received from the system. I don't think that's a card trick though. Intermittent solar exports are worth very little that's just the truth.

At this moment kwh's are going for 6.8 cents on the real time spot market at my local substation. But PG&E is forced under NEM2 to buy from a solar customer for a credit value of 25 cents or more instead. That's a loss making proposition and the cost of it gets born by other ratepayers.

 

[G20]

You're going to get better value out of self consuming than exporting on NEM3+ so yeah...

So you agree they flipped the script. One of the major incentives for going solar was to be fairly compensated for producing solar energy and putting the dump load back into the grid in an attempt to attain ROI without the expense of batteries. At a minimum, Net3 should be paying market rate to any supplier.

They essentially hid the solar size tax and convinced you that you got a concession with the "Income Graduated Fixed Charge".

Maybe they were trying to get away with double dipping [solar size taxes + return reductions] and achieved their double dipping goals with [Income Graduated Fixed Charge + return reductions] ???

 

[hwy17]

NEM3 does pay market rate, over market rate even, that's what the Avoided Cost Calculator is for.

With the IGFC and ACC we're finally getting closer to a system that accurately distributes costs and fairly compensates (rather than overcompensates) exports.

Personally I'd like to see an even higher IGFC, double the IGFC and it could entirely cover the fixed costs of the grid with fixed charges and then our volumetric rates could reflect only the incremental costs of producing more power - i.e. we'd be buying kwh's for the real open market value of a kwh which is somewhere in the $.05-.15 range.

 

[G20]

Two Bit di Vinchi lives in San Diego. Here is his cost breakdown between NEM2 and NEM3. He also comments on the "Avoided Cost Calculator".

His monthly rates would go from a $20 monthly credit to a $317.01 monthly bill.

His annual bill would go from a $240 credit to a $3,804.12 bill.

The $4,044.12 delta is enough to buy a new EG4 PowerPro each year.

To look at it another way, he is charged $3.8K/year for net 0 energy usage. He replaced every watt he consumed.

Heh, his price per watt does not even compute $3.8K/0 watts with a divide by zero.

 

[hwy17]

NEM 3 is a much worse "deal" than NEM 2 for sure. NEM 2 was so good that the utilities lost money on solar customers and had to make it up by charging other customers more. It wasn't sustainable.

We'd all love an infinite size free battery we could charge up in summer to drain in winter, and for a while NEM 1 and 2 let people pretend that's what the grid is. But the grid is not a battery, that's a fantasy, and we ran out of make believe. Now that we have to grow up and put away the candy bowl, the solar customers are acting like spoiled children.

 

[Zwy]

So you agree they flipped the script. One of the major incentives for going solar was to be fairly compensated for producing solar energy and putting the dump load back into the grid in an attempt to attain ROI without the expense of batteries. At a minimum, Net3 should be paying market rate to any supplier.

I say tough, you have the option to get full market rate for your production by purchasing batteries. If you don't want to purchase batteries, then don't install solar. Many of us here have battery systems and we made it work, so can you.

You have to remember unless you go to your state house and lobby for what you want, you won't have the power the utility lobby has.

 

[Zwy]

Two Bit di Vinchi lives in San Diego. Here is his cost breakdown between NEM2 and NEM3. He also comments on the "Avoided Cost Calculator".

His monthly rates would go from a $20 monthly credit to a $317.01 monthly bill.

His annual bill would go from a $240 credit to a $3,804.12 bill, enough to buy a new EG4 PowerPro each year.

View attachment 174597

I do believe he put in a Powerwall at some point. He had that option and took it. So does anyone else.

 

[G20]

...

You have to remember unless you go to your state house and lobby for what you want, you won't have the power the utility lobby has.

Unfortunately it doesn't work like that in some states. Some things are etched in stone no how many voters say otherwise.

I have written to state representatives opposing various issues and all that is returned is a form letter stating, "Thank you for supporting our cause". If things happen to get voted in on a proposition protocol, the vote is overridden by a single signature if the decision has already been made.

 

[G20]

I do believe he put in a Powerwall at some point. He had that option and took it. So does anyone else.

He is grandfathered in to NM2 (until he moves again). IIRC he moved within the last year or 2 and started a new system.

 

[G20]

NEM 3 is a much worse "deal" than NEM 2 for sure. NEM 2 was so good that the utilities lost money on solar customers and had to make it up by charging other customers more. It wasn't sustainable.

We'd all love an infinite size free battery we could charge up in summer to drain in winter, and for a while NEM 1 and 2 let people pretend that's what the grid is. But the grid is not a battery, that's a fantasy, and we ran out of make believe. Now that we have to grow up and put away the candy bowl, the solar customers are acting like spoiled children.

Would you support solar customers adding the same "delivery fees" and various additional fees that power company adds to the customers bills ?

After all, electricity production, hardware acquisition, maintenance and delivery isn't free for either side of the wire.

 

[timselectric]

NEM was a bait and switch scam, from the start.
The smart ones have enjoyed the bait, and are getting out before the switch.

 

[solar8484]

NEM 3 is a much worse "deal" than NEM 2 for sure. NEM 2 was so good that the utilities lost money on solar customers and had to make it up by charging other customers more. It wasn't sustainable.

That's the propaganda used to pass NEM3. The IOU's continued to pay out nice dividends to investors while claiming they were going broke. It's BS. It's not a zero-sum game between solar and non-solar rate payers.

 

[hwy17]

Would you support solar customers adding the same "delivery fees" and various additional fees that power company adds to the customers bills ?

After all, electricity production, hardware acquisition, maintenance and delivery isn't free for either side of the wire.

Sure, as long as the POCO is free to tell you no thanks and curtail your exports cause market power is being offered at the substation for cheaper.

You want forced buyers, you get forced rates.

 

[hwy17]

The IOU's continued to pay out nice dividends to investors while claiming they were going broke.

No utility in California ever claimed they were losing money on solar cause they never have. That's never how the rate design worked. The NEM incentive program was always explicitly funded by redistributing the cost over the rest of the customer base. That's why it is important for the people, not the POCO, that it be reformed into a fair system because it is the other customers who overpay when they overcompensate solar exporters.

Notice how retail rate credits ended for commercial customers decades ago? That's because it's plain and obvious truth that retail rate credits lose money. What other business could ever sustain itself buying a product for the same price it sells it for?

 

[G20]

...

You want forced buyers, you get forced rates.

Isn't forced buyers how the POCOs have operated for decades, basically regional monopolies like most all utilities ??? Kinda sucks putting the shoe on the other foot especially when they are charging customers 43 cents.

Electric rates in San Diego, CA The average residential electricity rate in San Diego, CA is 43 ¢/kWh, which is 38% higher than the average electricity rate in California of 31.30 ¢/kWh. The average residential electricity rate in San Diego, CA is 143% higher than the national average rate of 18 ¢/kWh (or 2.39X as much as the national average).

Other counties besides SD are also getting charged 43 cents.