CO Detectors

[Supervstech]

And now a word from Svetz...
Apologies if any of this out of context, did a thread delete to stay in accordance with forum policies and moved the germane posts into this new thread... these things don't always go as cleanly as you'd hope! So apologies for any messiness.

I cringe every time i see a CO alarm.

people think they are buying detectors, like a smoke detector is... not so.

over the counter CO alarms are death beepers.

check the specs on them... they do not alert until they have detected deadly concentrations of CO for 30 minutes... so if one EVER goes off... leave the house immediately... never press the silent button, never guess it might be a false alarm... just leave, and call the fire department or a qualified HVAC contractor like myself to test for the gas...

A real detector is over 500 dollars... I was so happy when the UL authority was reviewing the standard a few years back. I was hoping they would require actual detectors... nope... they just changed the inter connectivity standard...
stupid. Force concerned homeowners to use junk alarms, or pay through the nose for a real detector. Ugh.

sorry... rant off.

 

[TCgreg]

I cringe every time i see a CO alarm.

people think they are buying detectors, like a smoke detector is... not so.

over the counter CO alarms are death beepers.

check the specs on them... they do not alert until they have detected deadly concentrations of CO for 30 minutes... so if one EVER goes off... leave the house immediately... never press the silent button, never guess it might be a false alarm... just leave, and call the fire department or a qualified HVAC contractor like myself to test for the gas...

A real detector is over 500 dollars... I was so happy when the UL authority was reviewing the standard a few years back. I was hoping they would require actual detectors... nope... they just changed the inter connectivity standard...
stupid. Force concerned homeowners to use junk alarms, or pay through the nose for a real detector. Ugh.

sorry... rant off.

lol our dog farts near it in our camper and it screams...And yes, I am sticking with it being the dog!

 

[TCgreg]

I cringe every time i see a CO alarm.

people think they are buying detectors, like a smoke detector is... not so.

over the counter CO alarms are death beepers.

check the specs on them... they do not alert until they have detected deadly concentrations of CO for 30 minutes... so if one EVER goes off... leave the house immediately... never press the silent button, never guess it might be a false alarm... just leave, and call the fire department or a qualified HVAC contractor like myself to test for the gas...

A real detector is over 500 dollars... I was so happy when the UL authority was reviewing the standard a few years back. I was hoping they would require actual detectors... nope... they just changed the inter connectivity standard...
stupid. Force concerned homeowners to use junk alarms, or pay through the nose for a real detector. Ugh.

sorry... rant off.

Can you give some examples of real detectors. I have never seen anything over about 150 bucks. Are these industrial equipment or consumer grade detectors? We recently added some in our house as a condition of permitting a new roof. They were pretty cheap and mounted to the ceiling. Probably junk. For our RV where volume of breathable space is less along with propane burning fridge and heater having a quality detector is more concerning to me. Please continue with my education on CO detectors. I know very little about them.

 

[Supervstech]

Can you give some examples of real detectors. I have never seen anything over about 150 bucks. Are these industrial equipment or consumer grade detectors? We recently added some in our house as a condition of permitting a new roof. They were pretty cheap and mounted to the ceiling. Probably junk. For our RV where volume of breathable space is less along with propane burning fridge and heater having a quality detector is more concerning to me. Please continue with my education on CO detectors. I know very little about them.

Why You Need A Carbon Monoxide Test | Home Comfort & Safety

www.myhomecomfort.org

 

[Supervstech]

I’m an HVAC pro. I warn all my customers about the CO alarms.

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree, anybody with a combustion appliance in their home get CO alarms.
but anybody that wants to be alerted when the SLIGHTEST amount of CO leaks into their home... contact an NCI specialist and have one of their monitors installed... I wish I was an authorized rep of them, because I can’t sell them. I haven’t been to their training and don’t pay their fees.

 

[TCgreg]

Why You Need A Carbon Monoxide Test | Home Comfort & Safety

www.myhomecomfort.org

So is there a consumer co detector that you can recommend for my RV? This seems like a link for NCI.

 

[Supervstech]

Sorry, no.
All consumer alarms are about the same.
NCI markets their line to be sold by trained techs around 700.00 each. I find that ridiculous. So I alert the public and warn them not to treat the alarm like they would a smoke alarm. No waving a towel or pushing the reset button when they go off. Get out and have the air tested.
keep co alarms mounted near bedrooms, and close to the floor for the quickest response of detection.

 

[Supervstech]

I have 3 CO meters in my truck, a $500 hand meter, and a pair of $2000 flue sample testers.
it sure would be nice if the UL had improved the sample rate requirements of required residential detectors...

 

[TCgreg]

This unit seems to meet much of the criteria from NCI website. I am learning. I wonder though if our gassy dog is setting off our OEM detector in our RV will this thing become a nuisance with regular alarms?


https://www.inspectortools.com/Defender-Low-Level-CO-Carbon-Monoxide-Monitor-p/dsll6070.htm

 

[svetz]

Fact or Fiction?

Let's start with how much CO is too much (ref):

According to the Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OSHA), no worker should be exposed to airborne CO of 50 PPM or higher for more than 8 hours. After that, the exposure poses a health hazard. Other agencies and organizations recommend different exposure limits. According to EPA data, the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health recommends no more than 35 PPM over 8 hours for workers. And the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists recommends no more than 25 PPM of CO exposure throughout an 8-hour workday.

So the OSHA and ACGIH numbers are for day-to-day work exposure of adults. Kids would be far more susceptible. But for adults it sounds like they can tolerate 25 to 50 ppm day in and day out.

How Accurate are CO detectors? From the Kiddie site:

Carbon Monoxide Level	Alarm Response Time
40 PPM	10 hours
50 PPM	8 hours
70 PPM	1 to 4 hours
150 PPM	10 to 50 minutes
400 PPM	4 to 15 minutes

The Kiddie site also has some more information on the symptoms:

50 PPM	None for healthy adults. According to the Occupational Safety & Health Administration (OSHA), this is the maximum allowable concentration for continuous exposure for healthy adults in any eight-hour period.
200 PPM	Slight headache, fatigue, dizziness, and nausea after two to three hours.
400 PPM	Frontal headaches with one to two hours. Life threatening after three hours.
800 PPM	Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 minutes. Unconsciousness within two hours. Death within two to three hours.
1,600 PPM	Headache, dizziness and nausea within 20 minutes. Death within one hour.

So to me they look like reasonable safety devices based solely on the numbers.

 

[Supervstech]

Wow, that is interesting information, I’m not convinced, since that is for working conditions, not sleeping or living space.
the medical field likely has different information. Remember, CO is a blood toxin, that permanently bonds with blood hemoglobin. Breathing processes do not purge it, like oxygen is purged, so the exposed hemoglobin must be excreted in the waste system of the body to purge it. so the alarm’s sensitivity of 40ppm would never trip if the house had a permanent 39ppm exposure level, and you could build up deadly levels with the alarm never alerting.
my houses have no combustion appliances in them right now, but I carry a CO meter on job sites and in big hotels. And I test the area before settling in... hotels have MASSIVE combustion for heating and water heating systems, and a blocked ventilation system has been cited more than once in severe health exposures.

 

[Supervstech]

Under the OSHA workplace statement, there was this of other standards...


NIOSH REL] The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has established a recommended exposure limit (REL) for carbon monoxide of 35 ppm (40 mg/m(3)) as an 8-hour TWA and 200 ppm (229 mg/m(3)) as a ceiling [NIOSH 1992]. The NIOSH limit is based on the risk of cardiovascular effects.

[ACGIH TLV] The American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH) has assigned carbon monoxide a threshold limit value (TLV) of 25 ppm (29 mg/m(3)) as a TWA for a normal 8-hour workday and a 40-hour workweek [ACGIH 1994, p. 15]. The ACGIH limit is based on the risk of elevated carboxyhemoglobin levels [ACGIH 1991, p. 229].

 

[Supervstech]

Also, this was stated for stoves...
Levels in Homes
Average levels in homes without gas stoves vary from 0.5 to 5 parts per million (ppm). Levels near properly adjusted gas stoves are often 5 to 15 ppm and those near poorly adjusted stoves may be 30 ppm or higher.

Nothing stated for the worst offenders, tank style gas water heaters...
A bad flueon this, and exposure climbs in the house...