diy solar

diy solar

Electric heater calculations

Me asked Myself tersely at breakfast, "If the movement of molecules, heated or otherwise, is in no way affected by the magnetic pull of gravity, then, what happens to heated molecular structures of both the gaseous and solid variety inside of a space capsule within the vacuum of space, hmmm Myself"? Myself, stopping mid crunch, peered above the box top of the life cereal box he appeared to be intently reading in his usual, attempt in vain to avoid conversation with Me at breakfast and with milk drizzling from the corners of his full mouth, sarcasticsly retorted, "I don't know I'm not a heatologist, now stop talking to yourself people are going to think your larky, Me". Me replied, "I'm not talking to Myself". Myself replied, "oh really ..."?
 
I am thinking on how to setup my barn for batteries, and I have a steel warehouse set of shelving... the old lead acid batteries are still sitting on it... I gotta rip all that out.
Foam board has decent Rvalue... and is pretty simple to build with.
 
I'm planning a box that encapsulates the batteries completely, 3/4" plywood lined with the blue styrofoam insulation. I'll make the top and sides one piece that lifts off the bottom piece. I'll leave about an inch of airspace at the top for terminals. Sound reasonable?

That will do, make it slightly oversize, like 1/4 inch, so the corners/joints fit tightly together.
When I started, it was insulating board & duct tape.
 
I was going to ask about insulation - what are the best type(s) for battery boxes?

Since blue board is so rigid and easy to work with, I would think that's probably best. Maybe some radiant barrier for good measure.
 
Me asked Myself tersely at breakfast, "If the movement of molecules, heated or otherwise, is in no way affected by the magnetic pull of gravity, then, what happens to heated molecular structures of both the gaseous and solid variety inside of a space capsule within the vacuum of space, hmmm Myself"? Myself, stopping mid crunch, peered above the box top of the life cereal box he appeared to be intently reading in his usual, attempt in vain to avoid conversation with Me at breakfast and with milk drizzling from the corners of his full mouth, sarcasticsly retorted, "I don't know I'm not a heatologist, now stop talking to yourself people are going to think your larky, Me". Me replied, "I'm not talking to Myself". Myself replied, "oh really ..."?

Anything with mass is affected by gravity.
 
Oh, it’s just a thing that gets to me as an HVAC tech. Everyone says heat rises. It doesn’t. Warm air gets pushed up by denser cold air.
Cold air does sink.

HVAC applications, functionally right.

Adding energy (heat) excited molecules, the orbits expand pushing each other apart, spacing apart.
Any mass becomes larger, expands, and that mass is less dense because it didn't gain 'Weight' (mass), but grew larger. Less dense by definition.

Heat expands metal, heat expands liquids, heat expands gasses, anything with mass.
A lava lamp works because the wax expands more and becomes less dense than the oil.
Mercury expands at a steady rate, so it's used for thermometers.

A warm 'Bubble' or column of air rises because it's less dense than the cooler air around it.
The less dense (heated) area rises in the ambient air column,
Physics, nothing much happens until something moves,
And the warmer rises (movement) and the cooler fills in underneath.

Cooler air does 'Sink', anyone that opened a fridge door in bare feet knows that.
BUT,
In that case, the 'Movement' is colder, denser air falling in the air column, being displaced from above with warmer room air.

Nature hates an imbalance and always tries to equalize.

In an insulated box, assuming the batteries do not touch the sides of the box, only the bottom would pull the majority of the heat from the battery. That is the primary reason for placing the heating pad on the bottom.

That might be a misspeak,
By that line of thinking, insulation UNDER batteries would keep cold from entering batteries entirely.
We all know that batteries would go ahead & radiate heat into the room...

Insulation all the way around would slow down the losses, but if warm air can escape, it's going to be REPLACED by cold air.
Seal up the cracks in the insulation, particularly the top since warm air is less dense and trying to rise,
The top is more effective as the 'Box', and the bottom as the 'Lid' will trap more heat.

I say 'Trap Heat', keep that warm air from rising and the inverted box makes the box fill with warm air before it reached the 'Lid' crack at the bottom.
 
Anything with mass is affected by gravity.

Correct.
Even light, light bends in gravity fields.

Several things are stronger than gravity, magnetism is one thing...
While a paper clip lays on the floor under the influence of gravity, a magnet will snatch it right up off the floor.

Not in free fall of orbit...

'Orbit', by definition, means something (Gravity) is curving the trajectory.

Free FALL indicates falling in a gravity field.
When forward motion compensated for loss of altitude it's considered a 'Stable' orbit,
Thrust & inertia...

Physics isn't my strong point, but I did watch the science channel in a Holiday Inn Express once ;)
 
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HVAC applications, functionally right.

Adding energy (heat) excited molecules, the orbits expand pushing each other apart, spacing apart.
Any mass becomes larger, expands, and that mass is less dense because it didn't gain 'Weight' (mass), but grew larger. Less dense by definition.

Heat expands metal, heat expands liquids, heat expands gasses, anything with mass.
A lava lamp works because the wax expands more and becomes less dense than the oil.
Mercury expands at a steady rate, so it's used for thermometers.

A warm 'Bubble' or column of air rises because it's less dense than the cooler air around it.
The less dense (heated) area rises in the ambient air column,
Physics, nothing much happens until something moves,
And the warmer rises (movement) and the cooler fills in underneath.

Cooler air does 'Sink', anyone that opened a fridge door in bare feet knows that.
BUT,
In that case, the 'Movement' is colder, denser air falling in the air column, being displaced from above with warmer room air.

Nature hates an imbalance and always tries to equalize.



That might be a misspeak,
By that line of thinking, insulation UNDER batteries would keep cold from entering batteries entirely.
We all know that batteries would go ahead & radiate heat into the room...

Insulation all the way around would slow down the losses, but if warm air can escape, it's going to be REPLACED by cold air.
Seal up the cracks in the insulation, particularly the top since warm air is less dense and trying to rise,
The top is more effective as the 'Box', and the bottom as the 'Lid' will trap more heat.

I say 'Trap Heat', keep that warm air from rising and the inverted box makes the box fill with warm air before it reached the 'Lid' crack at the bottom.
Why would ANY amount of insulation keep heat from entering batteries?
Insulation only slows the heat transfer. An air cushion around batteries in addition to the insulation requires two different heat transfer methods, convection and conduction.
The batteries in direct contact with the floor insulation transfers heat quicker from the batteries into the cold environment.
A heater there offsets this transfer with added heat, and also adds heat to the airspace surrounding the batteries.
No?

Ald air gaps in the insulation are absolutely the big heat loss, it's why yeti style coolers are so great at keeping ice cold... a sealed insulation system.
 
Again pondering the hot air rises point...

NOTHING in a gravity field rises.

Anything percieved to "rise" is ONLY doing so because something denser is pushing it up.

Cold air falls... period.

Straws dont suck fluid from a drink, a lower pressure area is created, and atmospheric pressure PUSHES the liquid into the straw...

Gravity pulls... it does not push... dense pressurized fluids push...
 
Dude, I wasn't trying to start an argument...

1. 'Air' is everywhere on planet Earth, there is no escaping it.
If you did escape it, you would die.
If you discount air being everywhere we are going to be, then results are going to be skewed.

2. 'Air' is a very low viscosity fluid.
Most components of 'Air' can be compressed into liquid state.
We are just lucky the force of gravity doesn't compress our 'Air' into liquid,
And we are lucky the sun heats the air to keep vapor/gas.

3. ANY heat on planet Earth heats the air,
It's what drives the atmosphere and water cycle.
Any air warmer than ambient rises because it is less dense per volume, warm air pools at the top of closed areas, like room or coolers,
Cooler air than ambient sinks because it's more dense than the ambient temperature.

4. Energy radiated as heat IMMEDIATELY encounters air/moisture/dust particles, things with mass, and warms that mass, the mass absorbing the energy and expanding, becoming less dense in the air column and rises in the ambient air column.

5. The warmer than ambient air rises, that's the movement, which creates both a low pressure cell under the rising heat 'Bubble' or column, and the ambient air pressure forces ambient air into that low pressure cell.
Something has to MOVE FIRST...

6. Closed cell insulation has 'Air' (or other gasses) suspended in it, since that trapped air can't MOVE, the ambient (colder) air can't move in because the warm air didn't move.
Two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time, keep warmer than ambient from migrating up and out, there isn't any room for ambient air to move into place.

7. Energy has to be in the light spectrum to move through a vacuum.
Vacuum coffee mugs prove that, a vacuum space, no 'Air' in the gap between walls, keeps your coffee hot without an 'Insulation' material.
With no air in space, you can easily have a 300° temp change from being in sun, to being shaded by a planet.
The ambient temperature is say, -150°, while solar radiation in the light spectrum will strike the space traveler and raise suit exterior to +150°.

8. Light spectrum energy is just that, light.
When it strikes a surface it changes frequancy from that contact, loosing energy in the process, why a room with a lot of windows heats up in direct daylight.

The surface the light strikes is heated, becoming thermal mass.

9. I use this as 'Passive Solar', 15' of windows at its peak facing south/south east.
In the summer, high sun, I shade the windows with a growing/green vine cover from above.
In the winter the vines die back, low sun gets directly into the home, strikes walls & floor, changes frequancy and sheds heat inside the home when it's needed.

10. Before HVAC, porches and tall windows did the same thing,
Porch shades high sun in summer, low sun got directly into the home.
Instead of heavy drapes to keep heat in, or out, I use triple pane gas charged windows...
Automatically let's low summer sun in, and once it changes frequancy and sheds the biggest part of it's energy, traps that heat inside.

'Low E' coatings on windows reflects high sun, lets low sun in.
I want more sun in winter, so I use green cover instead of 'Low E' coatings.
It's a little more work cleaning up leaves and pulling dead vines back once a year, but it's more efficient when you want passive solar energy.
Nothing COMMON absorbs high summer sun like growing green leaves...

--------

I'm just going by the laws of radiation, motion & thermodynamics.
Insulation slows the migration of energy as heat from equalizing with the ambient atmosphere,
Mostly air tight lids help slow that migration, like on coolers.
There is a reason we stuff more insulation into ceilings than floors, because heat rises in our atmosphere.
If you can keep the heat from rising, ambient cooler air can't come in from below...

It's also why I suggest an inverted box sitting on the bottom insulation board, the inverted box allowing you to easily seal up all cracks/escape routes for warmer air and still allowing easy access to batteries, simply lift the box off instead of trying to reseal a lid everytime you do maintenance on batteries.
 
Dude, I wasn't trying to start an argument...

1. 'Air' is everywhere on planet Earth, there is no escaping it.
If you did escape it, you would die.
If you discount air being everywhere we are going to be, then results are going to be skewed.

2. 'Air' is a very low viscosity fluid.
Most components of 'Air' can be compressed into liquid state.
We are just lucky the force of gravity doesn't compress our 'Air' into liquid,
And we are lucky the sun heats the air to keep vapor/gas.

3. ANY heat on planet Earth heats the air,
It's what drives the atmosphere and water cycle.
Any air warmer than ambient rises because it is less dense per volume, warm air pools at the top of closed areas, like room or coolers,
Cooler air than ambient sinks because it's more dense than the ambient temperature.

4. Energy radiated as heat IMMEDIATELY encounters air/moisture/dust particles, things with mass, and warms that mass, the mass absorbing the energy and expanding, becoming less dense in the air column and rises in the ambient air column.

5. The warmer than ambient air rises, that's the movement, which creates both a low pressure cell under the rising heat 'Bubble' or column, and the ambient air pressure forces ambient air into that low pressure cell.
Something has to MOVE FIRST...

6. Closed cell insulation has 'Air' (or other gasses) suspended in it, since that trapped air can't MOVE, the ambient (colder) air can't move in because the warm air didn't move.
Two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time, keep warmer than ambient from migrating up and out, there isn't any room for ambient air to move into place.

7. Energy has to be in the light spectrum to move through a vacuum.
Vacuum coffee mugs prove that, a vacuum space, no 'Air' in the gap between walls, keeps your coffee hot without an 'Insulation' material.
With no air in space, you can easily have a 300° temp change from being in sun, to being shaded by a planet.
The ambient temperature is say, -150°, while solar radiation in the light spectrum will strike the space traveler and raise suit exterior to +150°.

8. Light spectrum energy is just that, light.
When it strikes a surface it changes frequancy from that contact, loosing energy in the process, why a room with a lot of windows heats up in direct daylight.

The surface the light strikes is heated, becoming thermal mass.

9. I use this as 'Passive Solar', 15' of windows at its peak facing south/south east.
In the summer, high sun, I shade the windows with a growing/green vine cover from above.
In the winter the vines die back, low sun gets directly into the home, strikes walls & floor, changes frequancy and sheds heat inside the home when it's needed.

10. Before HVAC, porches and tall windows did the same thing,
Porch shades high sun in summer, low sun got directly into the home.
Instead of heavy drapes to keep heat in, or out, I use triple pane gas charged windows...
Automatically let's low summer sun in, and once it changes frequancy and sheds the biggest part of it's energy, traps that heat inside.

'Low E' coatings on windows reflects high sun, lets low sun in.
I want more sun in winter, so I use green cover instead of 'Low E' coatings.
It's a little more work cleaning up leaves and pulling dead vines back once a year, but it's more efficient when you want passive solar energy.
Nothing COMMON absorbs high summer sun like growing green leaves...

--------

I'm just going by the laws of radiation, motion & thermodynamics.
Insulation slows the migration of energy as heat from equalizing with the ambient atmosphere,
Mostly air tight lids help slow that migration, like on coolers.
There is a reason we stuff more insulation into ceilings than floors, because heat rises in our atmosphere.
If you can keep the heat from rising, ambient cooler air can't come in from below...

It's also why I suggest an inverted box sitting on the bottom insulation board, the inverted box allowing you to easily seal up all cracks/escape routes for warmer air and still allowing easy access to batteries, simply lift the box off instead of trying to reseal a lid everytime you do maintenance on batteries.
Goodness, please dont think I'm arguing! I just have a crazy side that points out misconceptions.
I'm happy with corrections, and I take ZERO offence from responses either way.
Peace!

I am trying to educate you and anyone reading this...

Gravity is the force in question. Air is the fluid.
Cooler air pushed the less dense heated air up.
It does not rise simply because it is less dense.
It gets pushed up by the denser cooler air.
 
Aircraft are much more dense than air, yet they rise. ?

Bernoulli's Effect.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli's_principle

Between Bernoulli's Effect & Venturi Effect I lost my mind learning to flow test throttle bodies, intake manifolds, heads, exhaust systems...
I didn't have a formal education, so constantly playing catch up.
Where I got ahead was electrical fuel injection and ignition systems, let them play catch up for a while!
 
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Goodness, please dont think I'm arguing! I just have a crazy side that points out misconceptions.
I'm happy with corrections, and I take ZERO offence from responses either way.
Peace!
Aircraft are much more dense than air, yet they rise. ?
Obviously I was discussing gravity controlled media... an airplane has an engine providing thrust that pushes an airfoil to provide lift... let's not get too many arguments going here.;)
 
Obviously I was discussing gravity controlled media... an airplane has an engine providing thrust that pushes an airfoil to provide lift... let's not get too many arguments going here.;)

I was just screwing with you (intentional jet engine pun)
 
Standing up at the chalkboard after writing out s single calculation measuring seventeen feet in total length, then saying with a GerManic scientist's accent, "it is zee reduction of air pressure over zee wingin that creates zee liftun uppen".
 
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OK!

I'm of the physics side of things, what moves first is the 'Cause', anything after that is 'Effect'.
Nothing interesting happens until something moves, the faster it moves the more interesting it gets.

I'm used to guys that think bullets "Speed Up" AFTER they leave the muzzle,
When you pull a powered lawn mower backward, the blade turns backwards,
That fossil fuel is "More Efficient" (despite 80% thermal losses) than electrical energy,
That DC pushes through long runs of wire just as good as AC does,
That air (atmosphere) 'Sticks' to the earth, not gravity pulling on the air column,

If you want to argue that less dense, warmer air is 'Pushed Up' or rises on it's own doesn't matter,
What matters is ambient, cooler air replaces it, and I don't think anyone argues that effect, the end result.
 
Heat being at a higher energy state of molecular activity than cold, is drawn towards cold ... did I do good?
 
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