Hooterville Co Op noticed my EG4 Solar A/C with 2700W ground mount panels - need advice on response?

[Mattb4]

...
I'm surprised my utility company doesn't go after me. I cut my bill from $200. a month to around $15. The only thing I buy is 240v from them. I generate my entire 120v needs

Hopefully they don't but there does seem to be more stories of various electrical companies beginning to make an issue of anyone that has solar panels at their home and no interconnect agreement. It can put a person into a hard place proving that they are not able to back feed or parallel.

 

[DIYrich]

Interestingly options are:
1) Do nothing. About 0.001% chance of this by my estimate
2) Have me sign a (more or less) STANDARD SOLAR INTERCONNECT AGREEMENT (!)
3) Ask me to disconnect the breaker. I'll be 60 next month - when does short term memory loss start?? Why is that breaker disconnected??

Option 4: disconnect solar. Get a Permit for the install of the ac. Have it inspected. After a while, hook up the solar to the ac.

 

[Hedges]

I'm just curious how any grid-tie only inverter (with or without limiter), whether listed or not, would backfeed a dead grid? Do they not all have to *constantly* analyze the incoming AC signal and sync up to it in order to output anything? Do they have the ability in their internal circuitry design to just keep going, bypassing the sync requirement? If that's the case, they are essentially regular off grid inverters internally as well, and you would think they would be marketed as being able to do both grid-tie and off grid. I figured it was inherent in their design that the analyzing of the incoming AC signal was pretty hard coded / gated and not really able to be bypassed.

I suppose one could say anything is possible with unlisted grid-tie inverters, but do we have any examples/evidence of simple grid-tie only inverters that aren't listed doing such?

I read it was accomplished in the lab, with carefully tuned resonant load. Don't know if it has ever happened in the wild.
Loads that vary in power draw with voltage could give it some stability.

I can completely turn off anti-islanding and set very wide voltage and frequency limits.
Bigger concern would be a grid-forming inverter or VFD miswired so it backfed. Something I do on purpose properly wired through an interlock.

 

[Plum Crazy Rob]

Well, I got the call! Drumroll please ??:

Rob,
After further discussion with the company's engineering firm, we have concluded that the installation of your solar system is not an interconnect to our electrical system from your mini split unit. This is due to your application not having an inverter with the capability of converting DC to AC electricity. If at any time you would turn this installation into a whole home solar generating system you will need to notify us and apply for an interconnect at that time.

Thank you for all the useful information on this setup, it will be helpful to us as a utility to have an understanding of what is out there being used.

So. I dropped a bomb on them but they figured it out. Very surprised they waived it off.

They called me on the phone and told me this first. I ask, can you send an email or letter? This part gets funny ?: (both guys are on speakerphone) I hear some mumbling. Then one says if we do YOU CANNOT SHARE IT with the county Code Department!! (Because of potential for it to come back and bite THEM!)

Some discussion ensues. Turns out these guys hate the Code Dept as much as any one of us! (I live in a rural corner of a large population 500k county - I calculated from my house S to county line I have 40 neighbors in 20 Square miles - farmland)

Then I thank them for cooperation and linemen service, and say "well I wouldn't want to POff my line guys. I bet my power would be connected LAST in an outage." Some laughing, and one finally says "All I can say about that is its a valid way to think"

So I know some will say YOU DUMMY. Why didn't you just tell them "IT'S STANDALONE? "

Well it was close, but it all worked out ! Thanks all for responding and the humor. ?

 

[timselectric]

Well, I got the call! Drumroll please ??:

Rob,
After further discussion with the company's engineering firm, we have concluded that the installation of your solar system is not an interconnect to our electrical system from your mini split unit. This is due to your application not having an inverter with the capability of converting DC to AC electricity. If at any time you would turn this installation into a whole home solar generating system you will need to notify us and apply for an interconnect at that time.

Thank you for all the useful information on this setup, it will be helpful to us as a utility to have an understanding of what is out there being used.

So. I dropped a bomb on them but they figured it out. Very surprised they waived it off.

They called me on the phone and told me this first. I ask, can you send an email or letter? This part gets funny ?: (both guys are on speakerphone) I hear some mumbling. Then one says if we do YOU CANNOT SHARE IT with the county Code Department!! (Because of potential for it to come back and bite THEM!)

Some discussion ensues. Turns out these guys hate the Code Dept as much as any one of us! (I live in a rural corner of a large population 500k county - I calculated from my house S to county line I have 40 neighbors in 20 Square miles - farmland)

Then I thank them for cooperation and linemen service, and say "well I wouldn't want to POff my line guys. I bet my power would be connected LAST in an outage." Some laughing, and one finally says "All I can say about that is its a valid way to think"

So I know some will say YOU DUMMY. Why didn't you just tell them "IT'S STANDALONE? "

Well it was close, but it all worked out ! Thanks all for responding and the humor. ?

That's wonderful.
It's nice that they actually took the time to understand what you have. Instead of just saying "nope".

 

[MrM1]

500k in the county!?! Man that's a bustling metropolis. We got less than 75k in the whole county.

Great news though. Glad to hear it

 

[Crowz]

500k in the county!?! Man that's a bustling metropolis. We got less than 75k in the whole county.

Great news though. Glad to hear it

I think we have 14k best I remember in the entire county here

 

[Daniel644]

That sounds really big-brotherish to me and don't understand how it is any of their business why you are using less power. I don't understand the issue though. You installed a device that is much more efficient than what you used before. If you really feel you must respond isn't that enough?

it's pretty straight forward, they saw the panels and NEED to KNOW for the safety of the LINEMEN whether those panels are in a position to where they can be backfeeding the grid, this is a legitimate safety concern for the power company, they have every right to know if you are doing something that could KILL ONE OF THEIR WORKERS.

The simple answer is right in the last paragraph of the letter, no it's not backfeeding, it's an isolated system, thats all they need to know.

 

[Texas-Mark]

it's pretty straight forward, they saw the panels and NEED to KNOW for the safety of the LINEMEN whether those panels are in a position to where they can be backfeeding the grid, this is a legitimate safety concern for the power company, they have every right to know if you are doing something that could KILL ONE OF THEIR WORKERS.

So if they drive by and see a generator in your yard, they can demand the same thing? With grid-tie solar inverters, it is virtually impossible to back feed if the grid is down, unlike with a generator.

 

[Quattrohead]

NEED to KNOW for the safety of the LINEMEN whether those panels are in a position to where they can be backfeeding the grid

This is a very over used excuse, any linesman worth their salt will strap the HT line to ground before working on it.
There is no inverter that can feed a short circuit or even indeed a few homes pulling on the local grid.

 

[Kenny_]

This is a very over used excuse, any linesman worth their salt will strap the HT line to ground before working on it.
There is no inverter that can feed a short circuit or even indeed a few homes pulling on the local grid.

Exactly!

 

[TM48]

I keep hearing this tired excuse trotted out all the time and you all know it's really not that possible right, there is no way that your shitty little inverter is going to power the whole neighborhood it will just shut down from overload.

You have no idea what taps or fuses the POCO has opened. There may in fact only be a length of wire between your "shitty little inverter" and that lineman. You kill him and you will not only be civilly liable but could be held criminally liable as well. Being ignorant of how the power grid is assembled is no defense.

 

[timselectric]

Big brother can be a jerk.
Option #1. Bow to their will.
Option #2. Tell them to pound sand.

Which Option is best, depends on where you live and if they have the government in their pocket.

 

[Texas-Mark]

Being ignorant of how the power grid is assembled is no defense.

Being ignorant of how grid-tie inverters work is no defense.

 

[TM48]

Being ignorant of how grid-tie inverters work is no defense.

There was no mention of a grid tied inverter.

 

[Texas-Mark]

There was no mention of a grid tied inverter.

Then what is the issue? How will there be any back-feeding? Are you assuming someone with a large solar array is going to be be running a "conventional" inverter and will somehow connect that to the grid? And if so, then it's really no different than what I said about having a generator (of any size) and having the electric company demand to know how you are using it.

 

[TM48]

Then what is the issue? How will there be any back-feeding? Are you assuming someone with a large solar array is going to be be running a "conventional" inverter and will somehow connect that to the grid? And if so, then it's really no different than what I said about having a generator (of any size) and having the electric company demand to know how you are using it.

Your right if it's installed correctly. But I've read comments that prove to me some folks sometimes do foolish things. My objection was aimed more at the attitude of it can't happen.

 

[Quattrohead]

Your right if it's installed correctly. But I've read comments that prove to me some folks sometimes do foolish things. My objection was aimed more at the attitude of it can't happen.

You are very correct, some of the stuff I see here and the interwebs in general frightens the crap out of me. Most should not be touching this stuff.
BTW I know plenty about power distribution systems around the world, don't assume everyone is an idiot....just most of them !!!!

 

[Texas-Mark]

Your right if it's installed correctly.

If it's not installed correctly, it will be fried and dead long before a lineman gets anywhere near whatever they are going to be.

My point is a grid-tie inverter by design won't operate without the grid being up. A solar/battery driven non-grid-tie inverter would have to be "intentionally" connected to the grid to be an issue. IMO mechanical generators pose a far greater risk of "people doing foolish things" than a solar/battery powered inverter. So do you think it's ok for the electric company to demand to know how you are using one (generator) just because they see it on your property?

 

[Q-Dog]

You guys should start a new thread to argue in. The original issue was solved over 4 months ago.