diy solar

diy solar

Low temperature hydronic (underfloor) cooling - heat pump sizing.

Is there any potential downside to oversizing the heat pump by ~10-20%?

You need to do a calculation so you're not cycling the pump all the time. That said, with a variable frequency drive in these it tends not to be an issue.

I haven't got the space for a large hot water tank to heat domestic water with it (unless I got rid of the pellet burner, but I'm planning to keep it at least for now)

You can hook up both to the same tank. That's what I do: I have a 40kW wood gasifier coupled to a 3000L buffer. The heat pump sits on that too, heating the water in spring/autumn, and cooling it in summer for a few weeks.
 
I should've said cellar. This "basement" is under another building. A workshop of sorts. My hause has no cellar.
Sorry for confusion. No basement under the house.

That does change things. Where exactly is this condensation? In the basement or cellar?
2hp is about 1.5kW and we're talking before cop (heat pumps are sized here in kw of heat output rather than electric input). I think thus is pretty much what I'm going for. That 8kW unit has an compressor somewhere in the region of 1500W if I remember correctly.
I think you have misunderstood what 2 HPWH meant. That would mean a pair of heat pump hot water heaters.

As you do not have a basement, then add just 1 heat pump water heater, bigger the better. This will remove the heat from the air inside the house and remove humidity which is the most important part with summer heat. Do you have a mechanical room? If so, you can duct from there, this will lessen the noise. The heat pump I'm referring to is this type. https://www.rheem.com/products/residential/water-heating/heat-pump-water-heaters/ Not sure what is available in Poland but these will draw very little power and will take the heat energy from the interior of the house and put it in the water. A side benefit is you get free hot water while removing heat and humidity from your living space. Will this be enough for your needs? That just depends on how tight and insulated your house is, any shade, etc.

The big advantage of this type of heat pump is you will not have to put any holes thru the wall. These are not quiet so it may be a deciding factor if you don't have a space for it that is sound deadening.
 
You can hook up both to the same tank. That's what I do: I have a 40kW wood gasifier coupled to a 3000L buffer. The heat pump sits on that too, heating the water in spring/autumn, and cooling it in summer for a few weeks.
I'm only heating the house with the pellet burner. Domestic water is currently heated by a tankless water heater. So I haven't got a domestic hot water tank at the moment.

That does change things. Where exactly is this condensation? In the basement or cellar?
In the cellar. Also an interesting fact. The condensation started appearing only after I added water sealant to about knee high on the bottom of the walls.

I had some issues with occasional flooding in this cellar (never more than an inch of water, but still it was a pain). So I've added this cement based sealing product to the floor and a bit of the walls. Then I had to add another cement based product to protect t the sealer from damage on the floor.

Now I expect the cellar not to flood, but I suddenly have condensation to deal with.

The temperature was exactly the same before. This condensation is either that the cement still is not fully dry, or a combination of that and that instead of porous concrete I now have a smooth hydrophobic surface.

I'll be putting my dehumidifier in there soon (that I bought to dry the cellar after last flood few years ago).

I think you have misunderstood what 2 HPWH meant. That would mean a pair of heat pump hot water heaters.
Yes, I did.
As you do not have a basement, then add just 1 heat pump water heater, bigger the better. This will remove the heat from the air inside the house and remove humidity which is the most important part with summer heat. Do you have a mechanical room? If so, you can duct from there, this will lessen the noise. The heat pump I'm referring to is this type. https://www.rheem.com/products/residential/water-heating/heat-pump-water-heaters/ Not sure what is available in Poland but these will draw very little power and will take the heat energy from the interior of the house and put it in the water. A side benefit is you get free hot water while removing heat and humidity from your living space. Will this be enough for your needs? That just depends on how tight and insulated your house is, any shade, etc.

The big advantage of this type of heat pump is you will not have to put any holes thru the wall. These are not quiet so it may be a deciding factor if you don't have a space for it that is sound deadening.
I only ever saw one like this on this forum, but I'm pretty sure I could get one. It is a very cool device. If only I had the space for it.

I do have a mechanical room, but it is slightly over 2x2 meters (6x6ft) and it is already full of stuff, the biggest thing being the pellet burner.

The only reason I can put an air-water heat pump is that I'm removing an electric auxiliary (house) heater at the same time and the indoor unit is the same size.

I agree this is a very nice solution to two problems. Cooling air and heating water at the same time.
 
I beg to differ regarding heating. 6 years of comfortable and cheap winters living in my house with underfloor heating says it works for heating. Perhaps you meant it about combined heating/cooling. I'm going to find out about cooling soon for myself...
No, I meant only for cooling. I think it's amazing for heating. I went with geothermal forced air for my house because I wanted air conditioning, but added radiant floor heat for my master bathroom off of my heat pump water heater.
 
But, summer heat is getting quite bad as I work 100% from home and I use powerfull PCs that make my "office" even hotter.

How many watts of PCs?

They produce somewhat higher grade heat. Rather than blending with room air and then cooling with A/C, how about discharging through a vent to outside? Would the replacement air drawn in be humid? Pass through an air/air heat exchanger and return the not so hot air inside?

Does your location have humidity, so A/C is the way to cool, or is it dry and an evaporative swamp cooler would work?

Is heat gain from sun hitting walls? Windows? Roof? I tried an IR thermometer and could see my uninsulated vaulted ceiling/roof was hot. Something to shade wall like bushes, windows like awnings? If an attic, does that get hot? In which case attic vent.

All those ideas to reduce somewhat higher grade heat before it adds to room heat and is more difficult to remove.
 
Is there any potential downside to oversizing the heat pump by ~10-20%?
Only that when modulating down to the actual load they tend to be less stable than a properly-sized unit. Here's my office, which has a 12KBTU unit, and I just couldn't talk the HVAC guy into a 9K, even though the SEER would have been slightly higher.image.png
 
I'm only heating the house with the pellet burner. Domestic water is currently heated by a tankless water heater. So I haven't got a domestic hot water tank at the moment.

Electric tankless love watts. Gas is OK, I have one in my shop for a supply of continuous hot water. I had considered installing a gas unit in my house, even knowing the cons of one. The heat pump water heater was a far better choice for the house.
In the cellar. Also an interesting fact. The condensation started appearing only after I added water sealant to about knee high on the bottom of the walls.
I had some issues with occasional flooding in this cellar (never more than an inch of water, but still it was a pain). So I've added this cement based sealing product to the floor and a bit of the walls. Then I had to add another cement based product to protect t the sealer from damage on the floor.
Now I expect the cellar not to flood, but I suddenly have condensation to deal with.
The temperature was exactly the same before. This condensation is either that the cement still is not fully dry, or a combination of that and that instead of porous concrete I now have a smooth hydrophobic surface.

I fixed my 1905 poured concrete basement by cutting 12 inches away from the wall, jack hammering that out and carrying the cement chunks out in 5 gallon pails, Then digging down thru wet clay 18 inches and carry that out in pails up the steps, installing 4 inch tile, carry down pails of washed rock, then 52 bags of premix concrete, mixed it in my 5 gallon mortar mixer. Already had a sump pump and pit installed.

Best thing I ever did, even with all the hard work. Then parged the walls, ground the concrete and epoxy sealed it. This was prep for the inverters and battery to be installed.

How tall is this cellar?

I'll be putting my dehumidifier in there soon (that I bought to dry the cellar after last flood few years ago).

With a heat pump water heater, you use the electricity the dehumidifier uses to not only heat water but to dehumidify.
I only ever saw one like this on this forum, but I'm pretty sure I could get one. It is a very cool device. If only I had the space for it.

How tall is the cellar? You might be able to use a small one sitting on a stand or platform.
I do have a mechanical room, but it is slightly over 2x2 meters (6x6ft) and it is already full of stuff, the biggest thing being the pellet burner.

If this is close to a bedroom or common living area, I would not recommend a heat pump water heater. You would need a duct for air.
The only reason I can put an air-water heat pump is that I'm removing an electric auxiliary (house) heater at the same time and the indoor unit is the same size.

Any link to what you are considering and a photo of what you currently have and how it is mounted?
I agree this is a very nice solution to two problems. Cooling air and heating water at the same time.
Between the tile and the heat pump water heater, I have a very dry basement.
 
How many watts of PCs?
Few hundred watts on average(200~300) in the room itself and the same again in the attic directly above, so by no means a huge amount, but even this does heat up the small room.
They produce somewhat higher grade heat. Rather than blending with room air and then cooling with A/C, how about discharging through a vent to outside? Would the replacement air drawn in be humid? Pass through an air/air heat exchanger and return the not so hot air inside?
I definitely have to do something about the attic. The plan was to install 4in extraction fan and the same size air supply. But I might have to relocate the PCs out of the house instead.

Does your location have humidity, so A/C is the way to cool, or is it dry and an evaporative swamp cooler would work?
It is on the dry side when it is hot. So an evaporation cooler would work, but if I was going the "full diy" route I'd install a horizontal ground source instead.

Is heat gain from sun hitting walls? Windows? Roof? I tried an IR thermometer and could see my uninsulated vaulted ceiling/roof was hot. Something to shade wall like bushes, windows like awnings? If an attic, does that get hot? In which case attic vent.
The attic certainly does get hot. It used to get hot even before I installed some electric equipment there. A (closable) vent is definitely a good idea.

Regarding walls, the insulation I think takes care of it. I have white venetian blinds on the sloping roof windows so they don't heat a lot.
All those ideas to reduce somewhat higher grade heat before it adds to room heat and is more difficult to remove.
Definitely good ideas, thanks.

Electric tankless love watts. Gas is OK, I have one in my shop for a supply of continuous hot water. I had considered installing a gas unit in my house, even knowing the cons of one. The heat pump water heater was a far better choice for the house.
Yes, my is a 24kW 3 phase unit. And it's the second one. Why? Because after buying the first I quickly discovered the most important parameter for a tankless water heater is not it's heating capacity, or how much 5C water it can heat for a proper shower. But, at how low flow it switches on. My current heater starts at 2.1L/min. This is enough so you can wash your hands etc. My previous heater required 5L/min so none of my bathroom facets triggered it (and the kitchen faucet had to be on full blast).
I fixed my 1905 poured concrete basement by cutting 12 inches away from the wall, jack hammering that out and carrying the cement chunks out in 5 gallon pails, Then digging down thru wet clay 18 inches and carry that out in pails up the steps, installing 4 inch tile, carry down pails of washed rock, then 52 bags of premix concrete, mixed it in my 5 gallon mortar mixer. Already had a sump pump and pit installed.

Best thing I ever did, even with all the hard work. Then parged the walls, ground the concrete and epoxy sealed it. This was prep for the inverters and battery to be installed.
So the sealing is provided by epoxy? The tile itself I imagine is not water permeable but cement/mortar in the joints is.

The problem with my cellar is that when I built it I didn't soften the angle between the foundation floor(horizontal) and the walls(vertical). This forms a right angle and I'm told it is difficult to seal something like that. On top of the foundation slab there is primer, then liquid bitumen sealer then a number of layers of thermally bonded bitumen sheet. On this the walls are built with concrete foundation blocks. These walls are sealed on the outside with two layers of two component bitumen product. The floor inside is 2in of concrete. The topmost meter of the walls is insulated with tough styrofoam and an air gap foil is used before soil is filled. On top of this the workshop, that is larger than the cellar is built.

This is in heavy clay soil. I imagine cavities exist right next to the walls which conduct water down to the bottom (I found few initially) when really heavy rain hits and drains overflow (happens once every couple of years). This then sits there under pressure and slowly leaks in.

I could redo it better, but I hope this sealant will take care if it.

How tall is this cellar?
195cm (almost 6ft).

But the cellar (and the building on top) is good 10m away. I guess pipes could be put into the ground.

(about the mechanical room)
If this is close to a bedroom or common living area, I would not recommend a heat pump water heater. You would need a duct for air.
It is. It on the opposite side of the corridor from the living room. I can just about tolerate underfloor heating pumps in there. I can't imagine a fan etc.

Any link to what you are considering and a photo of what you currently have and how it is mounted?
Sure, this is the auxiliary 8kW 3phase electric underfloor heater I currently have on the wall.
20240509_180757.jpg

(yes, it is cramped in there)

On the right is the indoor unit that will replace it:
500px_TCL_Pompa-ciepla-3.png
On the left is the outdoor unit.
Here is some English info about it: https://the-creative-life.eu/do-pobrania/
It is the 8kw split r32 unit.

Here is the pellet burner that stays for foreseeable future : (it really fills the room, but I just load it once a week, maybe every 3 days if it's really cold outside). Its power is 11kW, but it spends more time idling than burning even in winter.
20240509_181258.jpg

And the 24kW tankless water heater. A tiny thing in comparison.
20240509_181452.jpg
 
I picked up a 48V server rack fan, which runs happily on reduced voltage.
I mounted it in the gable and wired two 12V PV panels in series, plus a switch.
It vents the attic when sun falls on the panels. Don't actually know the impact on temperature.

I figure exhaust air from PCs and a fan to help push out a dryer vent could help your situation. Maybe through the ceiling for office PC.
 
The attic certainly does get hot. It used to get hot even before I installed some electric equipment there. A (closable) vent is definitely a good idea.
What's the insulation in the attic? Sounds like the walls are well insulated, what about the ceilings and roof?
 
On the right is the indoor unit that will replace it:
500px_TCL_Pompa-ciepla-3.png
On the left is the outdoor unit.
Now I'm really confused. You spent all this time telling us you can't drill through the walls for AC splits, and then you show us something almost identical to an AC split with an indoor and outdoor unit?
 
Roof? Other than a reflective barrier, I've never heard of insulating an attic roof.
We sprayed foam into the roof rafters in our MA house (which made the stand-up attic conditioned space), and blew insulation into the ceiling of our FL condo, which cut our Air Conditioning load significantly. Just trying to figure out what insulation the OP has between the ceiling of his living space and the outside.
 
Now I'm really confused. You spent all this time telling us you can't drill through the walls for AC splits, and then you show us something almost identical to an AC split with an indoor and outdoor unit?
Yes, I see how it can seem so just based on my posts. You are not seeing the outside of the house, where the mechanical room is in relation etc. The only shaded, protected from direct wind location is right behind that wall.

If I install this unit where my current auxiliary electric heater is (inside) I need to make a straight hole outside and I can put the outdoor unit on a pedestal right there. No need for going even one ft horizontally/vertically. Also the mechanical room has tiles on the walls, not plaster(this means I have to diamond drill, but at least I know cracks will not propagate so I have to replaster).

Now compare this with installing AC splits in every room where in each room there would be at least few meters internally and a lot of pipe lengths externally to put the outdoor unit(s?) in a good location.

Roof? Other than a reflective barrier, I've never heard of insulating an attic roof.
We sprayed foam into the roof rafters in our MA house (which made the stand-up attic conditioned space), and blew insulation into the ceiling of our FL condo, which cut our Air Conditioning load significantly. Just trying to figure out what insulation the OP has between the ceiling of his living space and the outside.

It is insulated with 20cm (8in) of rock wool. It is standard practice around here. Back when I was building most common roofing method was (certified)wood beam construction, then wood planking on top. Then primary roof membrane on this, and ceramic tile on top. Below the planking there is an air gap, then(going inside) a different membrane (vapor permeable, water stopping if i remember correctly?), then there is 20cm(8in) of rock wool, then another membrane(vapor barrier?) and finally osb sheet.

These days almost nobody does fully planked roofs around here.

All this is over attic, but the attic is not a living space, it is just some storage you can't even stand up in. The ceiling above the rooms is wood construction plasterboard on the bottom and planks on top. However, there is some insulation in there too. I'd have to find old photos to see what exactly, but when I removed a badly screwed in plank from the attic floor there is yellow vapor barrier foil and rock wool in there. It may be just an inch or two. I don't remember ever discussing it with the builders, but a different team was doing everything inside the house and later the roof was done by a different team. So I think this ceiling was insulated when it seemed like the roof may not be finished for a while.
 
Yes, I see how it can seem so just based on my posts. You are not seeing the outside of the house, where the mechanical room is in relation etc. The only shaded, protected from direct wind location is right behind that wall.

If I install this unit where my current auxiliary electric heater is (inside) I need to make a straight hole outside and I can put the outdoor unit on a pedestal right there. No need for going even one ft horizontally/vertically. Also the mechanical room has tiles on the walls, not plaster(this means I have to diamond drill, but at least I know cracks will not propagate so I have to replaster).

Now compare this with installing AC splits in every room where in each room there would be at least few meters internally and a lot of pipe lengths externally to put the outdoor unit(s?) in a good location.




It is insulated with 20cm (8in) of rock wool. It is standard practice around here. Back when I was building most common roofing method was (certified)wood beam construction, then wood planking on top. Then primary roof membrane on this, and ceramic tile on top. Below the planking there is an air gap, then(going inside) a different membrane (vapor permeable, water stopping if i remember correctly?), then there is 20cm(8in) of rock wool, then another membrane(vapor barrier?) and finally osb sheet.

These days almost nobody does fully planked roofs around here.

All this is over attic, but the attic is not a living space, it is just some storage you can't even stand up in. The ceiling above the rooms is wood construction plasterboard on the bottom and planks on top. However, there is some insulation in there too. I'd have to find old photos to see what exactly, but when I removed a badly screwed in plank from the attic floor there is yellow vapor barrier foil and rock wool in there. It may be just an inch or two. I don't remember ever discussing it with the builders, but a different team was doing everything inside the house and later the roof was done by a different team. So I think this ceiling was insulated when it seemed like the roof may not be finished for a while.
I thought you'd want to use the 'outdoor' unit _inside_ the house for cooling and dehumidification (and duct cool/dry air around the house or use fans to distribute it). You seem undecided if this small house can get away with one unit and ducts or fans or if you have to have one split in every room. I guess I don't have a good feeling for size, layout, number of floors, etc.

If you have room for one 'outdoor' unit outside, can you use that for HVAC? Maybe something like https://hvacdirect.com/ceiling-cassette-mini-split-systems.html would work?

Sounds like you have good ceiling and attic insulation, is there any way to run HVAC pipe-work through the attic? Even with the insulation it'll fit through a 2-3" hole... Look for some of Will's videos on installing HVAC splits.
 
I thought you'd want to use the 'outdoor' unit _inside_ the house for cooling and dehumidification (and duct cool/dry air around the house or use fans to distribute it).
Wow, I haven't even thought about this option :)
I believe a unit shown earlier would be much better as it was designed for it.
You seem undecided if this small house can get away with one unit and ducts or fans or if you have to have one split in every room. I guess I don't have a good feeling for size, layout, number of floors, etc.
Oh, no, I'm decided I definitely don't want to duct air around in this house. The house has not been designed for it. I wish it was, but it isn't. Likewise putting high wall (indoor) units would be a huge pain in here. Regardless if they are hooked up for cold water or classic refrigerant lines. I'm pretty sure I can get away with one outdoor unit. It will be cooling the floors (but not lower than the dew point). It was (rightfully) pointed out this will mean condensation unless I maintain pretty tight control on the operating parameters. In this regard cooling air is much better, so I explained why I'm choosing this option against a better tech.
If you have room for one 'outdoor' unit outside, can you use that for HVAC? Maybe something like https://hvacdirect.com/ceiling-cassette-mini-split-systems.html would work?

Sounds like you have good ceiling and attic insulation, is there any way to run HVAC pipe-work through the attic? Even with the insulation it'll fit through a 2-3" hole... Look for some of Will's videos on installing HVAC splits.
This is a good idea. If I was in a hotter more humid climate where I thought I couldn't get away from the condensation problem it would be a very good route to take (at least to cool the upper floor). The lower floor still would have the same problem.

BTW. My unit has arrived today. It will still take a good couple of weeks to do all the prep work for the install probably. I'm doing all the prep work myself. I have to make a pedestal for it(I'm thinking steel on concrete) . Install a drainage pipe for the condensate (a rain gutter is 2ft away). I have to remove the electric auxiliary heater, diamond drill the tiles in the mechanical room and buy products I'll use to seal the hole around the pipes. I'll make the actual hole outside on the day.

Also, I need to modify and solder the pipes that connect the auxiliary electric heater(it is 22mm soldered copper - ideally it should be 25mm, 1in) but this thinner section is about 1m long so I'm hoping to get away with it.

According to the heat pump manual I should be fine with no buffer tank (my underfloor system can support fairly high flow if I open manual calves). I also found the same unit under different names and more information.

Interestingly. This unit is sold as an 8kW unit (total heating power) but there is a little map of Europe on it with different colors showing capacity in different areas and Poland is shown in 6kW color(Spain etc is shown as 8kW). So perhaps it is not slightly oversized after all.
 
Back
Top