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My adventures building a DIY Mn/Fe flow battery

Got it - I was only pointing to that video for the iron fallout which he talks about and you did too via the organic portion of the chemistry. But what that ultimately mean for your battery remains to see. Also, limited hydrogen evolution is important.

Was gonna mention that the energy density of the all iron battery is too low to be practical. Also, that I love discovering which type of battery's and chemistry is not of interest. :)
 
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The issue with hydrogen evolution is two fold, not only does this cause the potential release of an explosive gas, but it also increases the pH of the battery. As the pH goes up, iron oxides and hydroxides can start to precipitate. This is why Fe flow batteries that rely on Fe plating need to have their pH lowered using muriatic acid as a function of time, to replace that lost hydrogen.

To get reasonable energy density from an all-iron flow battery that relies on Fe plating, you need to add a separating membrane - in this battery often microporous membranes can be used, sacrificing energy efficiency - to be able to keep the Fe3+ away from the metallic Fe. When put in contact with metallic Fe, Fe3+ will oxidize it to Fe2+ and reduce itself to Fe2+ as well, basically undoing the charging process of the battery.

With organic chelates, the destruction of the chelates causes free Fe to become available, this can also precipitate as oxides or hydroxides form at neutral pH. The decomposition products of the organic chelate might also be more subject to electrochemical reactions, which might reduce the coloumbic efficiency of the battery slightly.

However, from research done on Fe-EDDHA and Mn-EDTA flow batteries separately, we know that decomposition is slow enough to give us at least 500+ cycles. The batteries did not decay at these points, so much longer tests would be needed to assess the true decomposition rates of the chelates.

Also note, there is no need to buy solid FeCl3 (it is a potentially dangerous reagent as it's a relatively potent Lewis acid). In the EU you can easily buy 40% FeCl3 solution, which is more than concentrated enough to explore these chemistries, you just need to dilute it as needed for use with the acids you want to try.
 
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Yes one can buy FeCl solutions but some of them contain sulphuric acid like for etching solutions, so one has to be on guard and check the datasheet and the idea behind synthesising ferric chloride via muriatic acid was such that one ended up with (hopefully) a very pure solution and DI water as a bonus.

RFB chemistry is complex and under development and I am just an eager bystander that is trying to get a grip on the situation. And basically, some chemistry's suffer from non reversible processes like you mention. But its not a matter of if but rather are we getting to a solution that is viable or good enough for a longer period until something better exist - better is probably decades away, at least if we look at the financial injection each system and/or system upgrade would require.

Again, thank for adding to the human pool of knowledge, I sure admire your approach here.
 
I'm here 24/7 to please ;).

Was looking at a paper which use a similar approach as you, but they report crossover contamination form commercial cation exchange membranes. So your PVA based membrane might perform better. Still early days ofc, but its looking good. Also, your cell voltage is higher.


 
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I'm here 24/7 to please ;).

Was looking at a paper which use a similar approach as you, but they report crossover contamination form commercial cation exchange membranes. So your PVA based membrane might perform better. Still early days ofc, but its looking good. Also, your cell voltage is higher.

Note thay those diffusion coefficients are extremely low. From the same paper:

"Within duration of 10 years a crossover of only 0.35 mol% of the initial Fe-racEDDHA concentration can be extrapolated for a hypothetical cell "

Most papers will report crossover values, they have to be analyzed to determine how meaningful they are.
 
Very true and 0.35M% is not a lot

I'd like to get a small setup of mine this spring/summer and start a endurance test. I'd like to start with static crossover as well as doing cycles. I would need two different cell stacks. Both would need to use the same electrolyte batch to eliminate as many factors as possible and let them run independently for say 12 months. If anything happens during this period, then one would be better prepared for a larger system. Time is of utmost importance in my humble opinion.

And if things are discovered and/or improved or resolved on your end as an example, I could simply add another cell stack and start a long term study on it. I have the time to do that.

Q: You don't happen to have 1-2 unpopulated PCB's of the USB battery tester, that I could buy ? ... I can order ofc if you don't have any spare or need them yourself.
 
Very true and 0.35M% is not a lot

I'd like to get a small setup of mine this spring/summer and start a endurance test. I'd like to start with static crossover as well as doing cycles. I would need two different cell stacks. Both would need to use the same electrolyte batch to eliminate as many factors as possible and let them run independently for say 12 months. If anything happens during this period, then one would be better prepared for a larger system. Time is of utmost importance in my humble opinion.

And if things are discovered and/or improved or resolved on your end as an example, I could simply add another cell stack and start a long term study on it. I have the time to do that.

Q: You don't happen to have 1-2 unpopulated PCB's of the USB battery tester, that I could buy ? ... I can order ofc if you don't have any spare or need them yourself.

Sorry, I don't have any unpopulated PCBs. However, if you're building a DIY potentiostat, I would recommend building the upgraded version they published in 2020, instead of the one I built (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468067220300729). This one has much higher max current (200mA Vs 25mA for the one I built) and will therefore allow you to carry more experiments. I will probably upgrade to this version in the next 1-2 years.

Another important thing if you want to carry out any sort of cycling experiment is that the solutions need to be under airtight conditions and, if possible, under nitrogen or argon atmosphere. This is because the reduced Fe-EDDHA molecule (Fe(EDDHA)-2), is a strong reducing agent and reacts very easily with oxygen from the atmosphere. Note that this is the case for almost any sort of battery where you have something soluble that is a good reducing agent, including Fe2+ containing batteries.

Contact with oxygen in air oxidizes the reduced forms in the anolyte and discharges the battery. This is true for almost all flow batteries where the reduced form is not a plated metal. This process is reversible though, the electrolyte is not damaged by oxygen.
 
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A v2.0 version, nice, and the 200mA (not 200mV :)) gives room for greater flexibility, so thanks for the information - wonderful :). Will look it over.

I see, then by that fact, degassing dissolved oxygen (DO) also make sense since cyclability is greatly dependant upon a low amount of DO. Nitrogen is fairly easy to get a hold of, so a nitrogen rich environment or partial vacuum, shouldn't be too difficult either. But yes ofc I am thinking about the 1000 litre tanks already, even if its years away. There is always time to test and develop.. So thanks for the oxygen info, nice bit of info to have moving forward. One could make low O2 content or vacuum monitoring a feature of the anolyte to maintain the longest lifespan as possible.​
 
A v2.0 version, nice, and the 200mA (not 200mV :)) gives room for greater flexibility, so thanks for the information - wonderful :). Will look it over.

I see, then by that fact, degassing dissolved oxygen (DO) also make sense since cyclability is greatly dependant upon a low amount of DO. Nitrogen is fairly easy to get a hold of, so a nitrogen rich environment or partial vacuum, shouldn't be too difficult either. But yes ofc I am thinking about the 1000 litre tanks already, even if its years away. There is always time to test and develop.. So thanks for the oxygen info, nice bit of info to have moving forward. One could make low O2 content or vacuum monitoring a feature of the anolyte to maintain the longest lifespan as possible.​

Another good tip is that the normal form of Fe-EDDHA, which is (Fe(EDDHA))-1 is a deep red color while the reduced form, (Fe(EDDHA))-2 is colorless. Only a battery full or close to full will start to fade in red color. Sadly the color is so strong that it is not very useful to determine charge state directly, because even a very tiny amount of the oxidized form will make the solution ultra red.

However it is an excellent tool to determine if your solution is indeed isolated from oxygen.

Also, vaccum is not a good idea, because it is energy intensive and creates negative pressure which ensures any leaks will cause oxygen to come in. You need to have a good purge of the system with nitrogen first and then leave it under a slight positive nitrogen pressure, to ensure any leaks cause nitrogen to push out but not oxygen to come in.
 
1. It will be interesting to observe the colour differences and general behaviour. Can one trace the dissolved O2 content via pH values as an example ?

2. The thought behind vacuum degassing was to prepare the solvent before adding the chelate, while the holding tank itself would receive a blanket of N2. Then keep monitoring O2/N2 content and service the N2 blanket when needed. An initial O2 purge is a must like you point out and several sites mention that N2 purging as in contrast to vacuum degassing, is the most effective method. So, in the end, introducing N2 at the bottom of the tank such that N2 can be introduced and allowed to flow though the solvent and finally generate some pressure in the tank, looks to be a better solution than using vacuum. This reduces the system complexity as well as financial investment.

Also, need to find a supplier for the chelates who are selling to private individuals. I know you have your sources which I open to, but is good to have more than one source :)
 
Interesting. Was talking to a retailer who sell YaraTera Rexolin Q48 and Mn13 and he mentioned that these two products contain lime. Does your source contain lime as well ?
 
Interesting. Was talking to a retailer who sell YaraTera Rexolin Q48 and Mn13 and he mentioned that these two products contain lime. Does your source contain lime as well ?
Not that I know of. However they might contain some small amount, I haven't done any extensive analysis of the chelates. Pure Mn-EDTA is 13% Mn by weight, so if it contains any lime, it is likely not much.
 
The Rexolin Mn13 is 12.8% Mn when I look at the specifications ... and again, its a challenge to get a hold of but looking into it or working on it.
 
Most excellent. Btw, got a price from the one retailer I talked to and both are at 20€/kg, so not an expensive substance. But for development, 250g should go a long way.
 
Most excellent. Btw, got a price from the one retailer I talked to and both are at 20€/kg, so not an expensive substance. But for development, 250g should go a long way.

For a 10kWh battery you would need around 175kg of Fe-EDDHA and 130kg of Mn-EDTA. So those 20 EUR/kg would start to count!

However at those values it is probably easier to just buy them from china, where you could import them for a total of around ~9 USD/kg including importing fees. You would be buying a pallet of the stuff though. This is where using high molar mass compounds starts to hurt.
 
Also the cycling of the Fe-EDDHA/Mn-EDTA setup is quite pretty. The Mn-EDTA side goes from yellow to red and the Fe-EDDHA side goes from red to transparent. the change on the Mn-EDTA side is far easier to track, as it happens much more noticeably.
 
I'm gonna address a few things in this one post, its simpler that way.

1)
  1. If we look at a 48V@10kWh Li-ion battery pack from LG Chem, then 7500€ is a fair price. Here we can expect roughly 3-5k cycles.
  2. If we then look at similar LFP battery pack, then we land between 5500-7500€ but get substantially longer cycle life. LFP's are estimated to return 5000-10,000 cycles.
  3. A 10kWh NiFe pack on the other hand will cost roughly 10,000€, but there, >10,000 cycles is no issue.
  4. An all iron salt battery, the FeCl, is estimated to do more than 20,000 as in little to no losses are seen at those cycling's - but I currently do not have a cost projection here. So lets use NiFe levels.
Point being, if we consider the battery's above, then the MnFe has to be able to compete and its here that, at least I, is fumbling in the dark. I have no cyclability reference besides little to no degradation at 500 cycles. So before one worry about the cost for hundreds of kg, I would want the base knowledge to be known :)

2). Stumbled upon a paper where they used an anion-exchange membrane in a FeCl battery at pH of 2-3 (Tokuyama A901, 11 μm thickness) which was stable for at least 50 cycles.

Ttitle: ... A High Efficiency Iron-Chloride Redox Flow Battery for Large-Scale Energy Storage - DOI 10.1149/2.0161601jes ... curious about your thoughts here.

and here is a PDF with reference to the membrane: https://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/amfc_050811_fukuta.pdf

also some info here http://www.astom-corp.jp/en/product/02.html

10_image_01.jpg

ASTOM & Tokuyama merger information: http://www.membrane-guide.com/membrane_separation/ion-exchange/japan_ion_exchange_membrane.htm

3) The colour shifts sounds mesmerising :)
 
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