Need electrician in Tampa Florida area for DIY solar permit.

[mciholas]

In reviewing this issue, I think the Florida AHJs that reject solar installs by homeowners are misinterpreting the law.

Florida Statue Title XXXII Chapter 489.103 says:

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(7)(a) Owners of property when acting as their own contractor and providing direct, onsite supervision themselves of all work not performed by licensed contractors:

1. When building or improving farm outbuildings or one-family or two-family residences on such property for the occupancy or use of such owners and not offered for sale or lease, or building or improving commercial buildings, at a cost not to exceed $75,000, on such property for the occupancy or use of such owners and not offered for sale or lease. In an action brought under this part, proof of the sale or lease, or offering for sale or lease, of any such structure by the owner-builder within 1 year after completion of same creates a presumption that the construction was undertaken for purposes of sale or lease.

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The act of installing a solar power system on an owner occupied residence is improving that residence and thus appears to qualify under this clause for the homeowner exemption. Solar power systems do not appear to be excluded from the list of things deemed improvements.

Further, 489.105 (definitions) does not define "improving" at all, so the term has a very general meaning. Given the solar power systems add value to the home, it clearly meets the general definition of an improvement since the home value went up.

The existence of 489.103(7)(a)(3), which is dealing with the specific and unique case of the Solar Challenge, does not mean solar power systems are excluded if there is no Solar Challenge underway. Just because 489.103(7)(a)(3) describes a means to an exemption doesn't mean it is the ONLY means to that exemption, any of the other clauses can apply.

In order to exclude solar power systems from the exemption, the AHJ would have to show that solar power systems are not improvements that qualify under 489.103(7)(a)(1). So when they say you cannot get a homeowner permit, ask them to explain the legal basis for not counting the solar power system as an improvement.

For what it is worth, there is guidance from

How to get a DIY Solar Permit in Florida - Ecuip Engineering

Solar power, with its promise of sustainability and energy independence, is a beacon of hope for a greener future. Yet, the cost of entry often casts a shadow over this renewable energy solution.

ecuip.com

1. Owner-Occupied Residences – Improvements under $75,000:​

• Statute Code: Florida Statutes, Chapter 489, Section 489.103(7)(a)(1)
• Scope: Building or improving farm outbuildings, one-family, or two-family residences, or commercial buildings on the owner’s property.
• Cost Limit: The cost should not exceed $75,000.
• Usage: The construction is for the occupancy or use of the owners and is not intended for sale or lease.
• Presumption: If the owner-builder sells or leases the structure within 1 year after completion, it is presumed that the construction was undertaken for purposes of sale or lease.
• Inclusion of Solar: Solar improvements can fall under this exemption if the total cost is within the specified limit.

Further, the Solar Challenge clause was added in 2012. In 2011, there was not mention of solar at all in the exemption statute so a homeowner was seemingly able to use the general "improvement" clause then. It would be very odd if the appearance of the Solar Challenge clause in 2012 not caused there to be less access to homeowner exemption than before.

I would insist the AHJ answer the legal basis for excluding solar power systems from 489.103(7)(a)(1). Why are they not improvements? Why did the Solar Challenge clause added in 2012 cause there to be less means to get an exemption?

You fight city hall using their own weapons against them.

Mike C.

 

[B-ManFX4]

The permit application requires a licensed contractor be named. Who was that for this job? If he didn't have one, how did your buddy get a permit to do the work if he didn't have a contractor listed?

I am perfectly happy to have an inspection of my work, but finding a contractor to list on the permit has been a roadblock.

Altways does not seem to be a contractor, but a service to do solar benefit analysis and to provide plans. Do they offer contracting services as well?

Mike C,

If the permit application requires a licensed contractor to be named that has been added since we installed his. We did all of his electrical work.

 

[B-ManFX4]

Hi,

I am doing this in Wesley Chapel near Tampa, did you hire an electrician at all or were you able to do this yourselves? I am looking fr some help with the tapping of the main lines into the 18Kv and some additional electric work to get a grid tie system.

He did not hire an electrician. We installed and wired all of the components ourselves.

 

[BKY2003]

Would not hurt to check if the power company requires a licensed contractor. In my Fl county one electric company allows you to pull your own permit. The other power company requires a license contractor. So if it’s a company policy that will be the rule. And that might be why the building department says you need a contractor.

 

[mciholas]

Would not hurt to check if the power company requires a licensed contractor. In my Fl county one electric company allows you to pull your own permit. The other power company requires a license contractor. So if it’s a company policy that will be the rule. And that might be why the building department says you need a contractor.

Power company rules cannot trump state statutes. If the state statute provides a means for the homeowner to be the contractor, then you can do so. The power company is not involved in the issuance of the permit to do the work, nor the AHJ inspection after the work is done, so you can proceed on that basis.

If an AHJ denies your otherwise valid permit application solely based on the utility rules, then they are violating the law.

Mike C.

 

[BKY2003]

I understand, but that’s how it works in my county.

 

[mciholas]

I understand, but that’s how it works in my county.

Then you should challenge your AHJ to justify their position of illegally ceding authority to the utility.

It works that way on your county only because no has done that yet.

It is often not very hard to challenge this. Sometimes a simple letter to the AHJ asking them to justify their position in writing will put them in a position where they realize they can't and they will relent. If that doesn't work, then proceed with a permit application defying the utility mandate. If it gets rejected, again ask for the justification. Next step is a request on letterhead from a lawyer asking for the same thing. You don't have to do very much to start making the AHJ uncomfortable with its position when they realize they don't have a legal basis for it.

It is an obligation on the citizenry to keep government from exceeding its bounds.

Mike C.

 

[BKY2003]

Then you should challenge your AHJ to justify their position of illegally ceding authority to the utility.

It works that way on your county only because no has done that yet.

It is often not very hard to challenge this. Sometimes a simple letter to the AHJ asking them to justify their position in writing will put them in a position where they realize they can't and they will relent. If that doesn't work, then proceed with a permit application defying the utility mandate. If it gets rejected, again ask for the justification. Next step is a request on letterhead from a lawyer asking for the same thing. You don't have to do very much to start making the AHJ uncomfortable with its position when they realize they don't have a legal basis for it.

It is an obligation on the citizenry to keep government from exceeding its bounds.

Mike C.

Actually, I have the power company that allows homeowner to pull the permit, so that’s what I did.
"It is an obligation on the citizenry to keep government from exceeding its bounds."
I would, but once I get started I don't back down. So I will have to leave that to the younger generation.

 

[Quattrohead]

I am in a similar situation now, except I have plans for 100% off grid, permits pulled, equipment installed and passed inspection.
Now, the town have decided I cannot get a CO because of no grid connection, even though my solar system is up and running 100%
They think FPL forbids them to issue a permit, and I am challenging that assumption.

 

[ArthurEld]

I did a homeowner permit in Clearwater. It went pretty smooth. They made me change some conduit because I mismatch types and they made me put in a 2nd ground rod. I got the required engineering drawings from AltE when I bought my equipment. I paid a solar installer put my panels up.

 

[mciholas]

I got the required engineering drawings from AltE when I bought my equipment.

What equipment did you use?

I paid a solar installer put my panels up.

I'd be interested in knowing who they are if you are willing to share.

What kind of roof do you have?

Mike C.

 

[ArthurEld]

What equipment did you use?

I have a Solark 12K and thirty 330 Watt panels

I'd be interested in knowing who they are if you are willing to share.

I'll send you his #

What kind of roof do you have?

My roof is regular shingles but I think solar panels can go on most roofs.

 

[mciholas]

My AHJ says I need a structural engineer to design my structural plans. The house has concrete tiles that are several tons on the roof and the solar system is basically nothing compared to that, so that defies common sense.

I went to Ironridge and used their design tools. The tool said, with XR-100 rails, I needed an anchor every 2 ft on every rafter. That's just bonkers, particularly since installing anchors on a tile roof is painful. That resulted in 116 tile anchors and a BOM adding up to $4,200. That's more than the panels cost. There must be something wrong with the tool.

I have a very simple array, 2 rows, nothing weird, no gaps, as simple as it comes. Where can I find an engineer who can make plans acceptable to the AHJ? Do they need a PE stamp, or just be engineered plans?

I looked at Greenlancer They offer a "permit plans set" service for $425. Fantastic, that would help me out. So I contact them and say I need plans. They send a quote back to me for $1325. Apparently, the plan set they make isn't done by engineers and it has to be stamped by outside PEs, one for electrical and one for structural, and those add up to an extra $900. Well, gee, that's not helpful if their plans set isn't good enough for my AHJ out of the box.

This solar thing is just one barrier after another to get anything done. It is very frustrating. If you talk to anybody in the "solar industry", all they see is money they can extract from you.

My project may end up dead just from the mental anguish. I'm depressed about it. Can't find plan service, can't find contractor, seemingly can't get anything done.

Mike C.

 

[B-ManFX4]

My AHJ says I need a structural engineer to design my structural plans. The house has concrete tiles that are several tons on the roof and the solar system is basically nothing compared to that, so that defies common sense.

I thought the same thing when my friend was going through the permitting process. After talking with the structural engineer, I had to agree the rules are there for valid reasons. In this case Florida is a hurricane target. It is also very common for severe thunderstorms to roll through almost daily from April to October.

Solar panels are potential wind sails when installed on a roof. The entire concern from the structural engineering perspective was what type (and how many) attachment points to the structure were required to prevent a panel from becoming a flying death frisbee in a storm or hurricane. It had absolutely zero to do with the roofs ability to support the weight of the panels.

 

[ArthurEld]

My AHJ says I need a structural engineer to design my structural plans. The house has concrete tiles that are several tons on the roof and the solar system is basically nothing compared to that, so that defies common sense.

I went to Ironridge and used their design tools. The tool said, with XR-100 rails, I needed an anchor every 2 ft on every rafter. That's just bonkers, particularly since installing anchors on a tile roof is painful. That resulted in 116 tile anchors and a BOM adding up to $4,200. That's more than the panels cost. There must be something wrong with the tool.

I have a very simple array, 2 rows, nothing weird, no gaps, as simple as it comes. Where can I find an engineer who can make plans acceptable to the AHJ? Do they need a PE stamp, or just be engineered plans?

I looked at Greenlancer They offer a "permit plans set" service for $425. Fantastic, that would help me out. So I contact them and say I need plans. They send a quote back to me for $1325. Apparently, the plan set they make isn't done by engineers and it has to be stamped by outside PEs, one for electrical and one for structural, and those add up to an extra $900. Well, gee, that's not helpful if their plans set isn't good enough for my AHJ out of the box.

This solar thing is just one barrier after another to get anything done. It is very frustrating. If you talk to anybody in the "solar industry", all they see is money they can extract from you.

My project may end up dead just from the mental anguish. I'm depressed about it. Can't find plan service, can't find contractor, seemingly can't get anything done.

Mike C.

If you buy your panels and racking from a reputable company, they will help you get the stamped engineering plans for a reasonable price.

 

[mciholas]

If you buy your panels and racking from a reputable company, they will help you get the stamped engineering plans for a reasonable price.

This is why I went to the Ironridge online configurator app and put in my parameters. My hope was if I put in the data, they can somehow spit out the structural plan set for low or no cost and I'd be set.

First issue is that the Ironridge system required 2 ft mount spacing (every rafter), which is totally ridiculous, so something is wrong with the configuration.

Second issue is that when you get to the end and hit the "Permit Pack" button, it takes you to Greenlancer. So I ended up back where I started.

Who else besides Ironridge makes racking systems with tile hooks? I can try others.

Mike C.

 

[ArthurEld]

If you call the number I sent you, he will probably recommend that you buy your panels and racking from CE Greentech.
And they can help you get the stamped permit plan.

 

[Quattrohead]

First issue is that the Ironridge system required 2 ft mount spacing (every rafter), which is totally ridiculous, so something is wrong with the configuration.

Just because you don't like the data, does not mean it is wrong.
Look at all the tornadoes this week, over a wide area of the middle of the country. No one wants thousands of panels raining down, hail is bad enough.

 

[mciholas]

Just because you don't like the data, does not mean it is wrong.

Having to anchor rails to every rafter is wrong. It just is. Maybe that's needed at the start or end of the array, but not every rafter in the middle.

The span tables Ironridge provide say XR100 should be good to 6 ft, and XR1000 to 10 ft for the wind rating needed in my area. Their tables don't even list 2 ft as an option.

Look at all the tornadoes this week

No building code is written to survive a direct hit of a tornado, that is a completely unrealistic expectation.

Mike C.

 

[Quattrohead]

I was going to login to Ironridge and check my install and put your area in to see if it made a difference and try to understand why it would want 2' rafter attachments.....but they got bought out and now it insists on making a new login, nope.