New electric system on sailboat

[solidseb]

Hello,

Just starting with batteries and solar powered system so I am very much a beginner.
Here is what I got :

200W Renogy solar pannel (planning to get a second one soon)
50A renogy Mppt charger
300aH VATRER lifepo4 battery ( 3840Wh 200A Built-in BMS Max 2560W Load Power)
4000W 〜 8000W Inverter ( ROARBATT 12 V 4,000 W Inverter, Sine Wave, Instant Maximum 8,000 W, Converts DC 12 V to AC 100)

My first question is, is there anything inconsistent with this setting ?
Also what fuse do I need and where should I put them ?

Thanks in advance.

Seb

 

[TimE]

Hello,

Just starting with batteries and solar powered system so I am very much a beginner.
Here is what I got :

200W Renogy solar pannel (planning to get a second one soon)
50A renogy Mppt charger
300aH VATRER lifepo4 battery ( 3840Wh 200A Built-in BMS Max 2560W Load Power)
4000W 〜 8000W Inverter ( ROARBATT 12 V 4,000 W Inverter, Sine Wave, Instant Maximum 8,000 W, Converts DC 12 V to AC 100)

My first question is, is there anything inconsistent with this setting ?
Also what fuse do I need and where should I put them ?

Thanks in advance.

Seb

Why do people buy stuff then ask if it's OK? Wouldn't it be better to ask what to buy first?

 

[solidseb]

Anything wrong ?
I can always change.. Would be nice to point what's wrong instead of just throwing some rethorical questions..

 

[RV8R]

Hi @solidseb

Welcome to The Forum

Looks like your battery provides 2560 W max
&
Inverter uses more than 4000 W

Have you drawn out a schematic or gathered all of your equipment performance specifications yet ??

If so post them here & you will get more action on your thread.

Assuming you are very new to all of this, it can be a very satisfying learning experience, but kinda self paced & can take a lot of time depending upon your life’s experience. The “Wire Unlimited” is a good read;

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/The_Wiring_Unlimited_book/43562-Wiring_Unlimited-pdf-en.pdf

To ask if anything is wrong, or where to put fuses and which ones “at this time” ,,, is a little like asking “how long is a piece of string”.

If you draw a schematic of your design & post it here then I could probably be of more help. There is “real learning” for you in attempting to draw out a schematic. You can look at the equipment data that you have picked out & they will have diagrams & data ( If they don’t - that will indicate something );

Here is an example;

https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/sites/default/files/product/manual/64-0058-Rev-A-MSH-M-Series_Web.pdf

I took a few seconds to attempt to find your inverter data / performance specs / manual. The results were not “Steller”. So if you can find that stuff & post it here ( or a link ), then that would help us help you.

 

[RV8R]

Did the Battery come with any manual ?

Vatrer 12V 300Ah 200A BMS LiFePO4 Lithium Battery

Vatrer's newest 300Ah 12V battery is the perfect battery for any application. From trailers to boats, just drop them in and go!

www.vatrerpower.com

Here is an example of the AGM battery manual I obtain for my Rolls. This is an example of a battery manufacturer with a decent manual;

https://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Rolls-Battery-User-Manual.pdf

So are there “things wrong” ??

Well for 1 ,,, Your inverter indicates 8000W / efficiency & without specs I assume 80% so peak draw is assumed @ 10,000 W and your battery craps out @ 2560W . My numbers “might” be conservative ,,, or not ,,, cause who knows ,,, no data provided.

.

 

[solidseb]

Here are a few pictures of the manual. It's in Japanese so i used Google to roughly translate it.

So on my schematic the left side is the current system. 2 lead batteries connected to the boat's outlet, a 1800W inverter and all the boat's electronic ( GPS, autopilot, lamps, etc..)

The new system on the right is more for appliances that needs more energy.
I decided to make 2 separate system so that I don't draw all the lead batteries energy and keep it for the boats regular operation.

The new system will only be used for appliances connected directly to the inverter, not the battery.
Also I intend to get a second 300AH in the near future.

 

[solidseb]

Also I tried it already at my house. Fully charged the battery, pluged the inverter, water boiler and vaccum cleaner working at the same time.
This is what it showed on the inverter.

 

[SparkyGage]

I'm curious what size the boat is. Greater than, less than or equal to 9 meters? Is this a day/weekend sailor or a larger/longer trip sailor? Are you using any electric propulsion, or just powering the cabin and helm? Is there a starter motor at play in the plan?

The logistics of your boat factor in when deciding what you CAN do and what you SHOULD do. So far, from what I've seen, you need more batteries or a smaller inverter. Size and use of the boat will better dictate the way to go.

Happy Sails to You

 

[solidseb]

I'm curious what size the boat is. Greater than, less than or equal to 9 meters? Is this a day/weekend sailor or a larger/longer trip sailor? Are you using any electric propulsion, or just powering the cabin and helm? Is there a starter motor at play in the plan?

The logistics of your boat factor in when deciding what you CAN do and what you SHOULD do. So far, from what I've seen, you need more batteries or a smaller inverter. Size and use of the boat will better dictate the way to go.

Happy Sails to You

Thank you for your answer.
The boat is a 34 footer, cruiser mostly but I wanna be able to be off grid for a few days at a time.

I already have 2 lead acid batteries for the engine start and the boat's equipment.

Eventually I wanna make sure to have enough energy to power the air conditioner if necessary ( it's a residential one the previous owner installed in the boat), a fridge (camping one) a microwave and a water boiler.
The new system is to be independent of the current boat's system so only for the appliances I mentioned above.
So that if it fails I can still survive on the boat with the old sytem which is powered by a 100W solar panel.

 

[SparkyGage]

Thank you for your answer.
The boat is a 34 footer, cruiser mostly but I wanna be able to be off grid for a few days at a time.

I already have 2 lead acid batteries for the engine start and the boat's equipment.

Eventually I wanna make sure to have enough energy to power the air conditioner if necessary ( it's a residential one the previous owner installed in the boat), a fridge (camping one) a microwave and a water boiler.
The new system is to be independent of the current boat's system so only for the appliances I mentioned above.
So that if it fails I can still survive on the boat with the old sytem which is powered by a 100W solar panel.

Ok, so I am understanding all these appliances are AC? What is the amp draw:
AC:_____ amps, expected hours of use:________
Fridge:_____ amps, expected hours of use:________
Microwave:_____ amps, expected hours of use:________
Water boiler: _____ amps, expected hours of use:________ (Is this a kettle/pot or a small tank heater?)

Just from this description, here are my *initial* impressions:
- I would consider a 24v system and as you replace appliances, go with DC to minimize your load needs (and losses) from an AC inverter.
- A 24vdc kettle is a $50 item and heats almost twice as fast as a 12vdc (the same as a 240vac kettle is almost twice as fast as a 120vac kettle).
- You'll need 800w of panels and another battery to run that AC for any significant amount of time, I suspect.
- Your fridge(AC or DC?) and AC will be the biggest draws as they are semi continuous loads, so your inverter needs to run pretty much constantly.
- Keep in mind when you are and aren't making power: When you are under sail and they cast a shadow, you aren't; when the panels are facing north, you aren't; when the panels are facing west in the morning and east in the afternoon you aren't; when you are anchored with the panels facing the sun, you are. (ok maybe you are making some power in those "aren't" times, but it's not the full wattage, maybe as little as 10-20%. And then it might not be enough for the charge controller to charge the batteries)

Before you act on any of this, remember: I'm just some guy on the internet.

 

[solidseb]

Ok, so I am understanding all these appliances are AC? What is the amp draw:
AC:_____ amps, expected hours of use:________
Fridge:_____ amps, expected hours of use:________
Microwave:_____ amps, expected hours of use:________
Water boiler: _____ amps, expected hours of use:________ (Is this a kettle/pot or a small tank heater?)

Just from this description, here are my *initial* impressions:
- I would consider a 24v system and as you replace appliances, go with DC to minimize your load needs (and losses) from an AC inverter.
- A 24vdc kettle is a $50 item and heats almost twice as fast as a 12vdc (the same as a 240vac kettle is almost twice as fast as a 120vac kettle).
- You'll need 800w of panels and another battery to run that AC for any significant amount of time, I suspect.
- Your fridge(AC or DC?) and AC will be the biggest draws as they are semi continuous loads, so your inverter needs to run pretty much constantly.
- Keep in mind when you are and aren't making power: When you are under sail and they cast a shadow, you aren't; when the panels are facing north, you aren't; when the panels are facing west in the morning and east in the afternoon you aren't; when you are anchored with the panels facing the sun, you are. (ok maybe you are making some power in those "aren't" times, but it's not the full wattage, maybe as little as 10-20%. And then it might not be enough for the charge controller to charge the batteries)

Before you act on any of this, remember: I'm just some guy on the internet.

Thanks a lot for your reply.
I already have the appliances and everything is AC.
Fridge : running non stop at aprox. 130W it's a portable camping fridge
Microwave : 10-15 min a day at 1000W
Water boiler : 10-15 min a day at 500W
AC : 1-2h a day at 800W (mostly before sleep to adjust the temp if not comfortable enough)
Fan : If AC not realistic, can run on battery but if plugged around 200W

I will get another 300aH eventually to help power all those.
As for solar panels I don't think I can fit more than 400W. I would charge the batteries on shore power when possible and otherwise rely on the solar panels.
I'm also thinking about adding an alternator to my engine to help with that.

One of the big question I've got now is what kind of fuse do I need to connect the battery(s) to the inverter.
was thinking a 500a.

 

[littleharbor2]

You defiantly need more PV and battery capacity. That one 200 watt panel would be lucky to make 0,75 kwh a day, especially flat mounted on a sailboat.
That fridge has to go. It's drawing 3.1 kwh. a day alone. My 14.4 cu. ft. residential fridge pulls about 80 watts when running. It runs about 40% of the time. That's less than 1 kwh a day.

 

[TimE]

You defiantly need more PV and battery capacity. That one 200 watt panel would be lucky to make 0,75 kwh a day, especially flat mounted on a sailboat.
That fridge has to go. It's drawing 3.1 kwh. a day alone. My 14.4 cu. ft. residential fridge pulls about 80 watts when running. It runs about 40% of the time. That's less than 1 kwh a day.

My 24v built is 100L fridge freezer with lots of insulation, uses a 45w compressor running 20 mins in the hour. Less that 0.5kWh/day. In the heat of the Caribbean

 

[littleharbor2]

My 24v built is 100L fridge freezer with lots of insulation, uses a 45w compressor running 20 mins in the hour. Less that 0.5kWh/day. In the heat of the Caribbean

Surely yours cost a lot more than my Hotpoint refer but to the point, a continuous 130 watt draw for a camping fridge is unacceptable.

 

[Supervstech]

Notice the voltage drop indicated on your inverter.
Roughly 3000W draw, and your battery is reading 0% voltage.
12V inverters have a HUGE draw on the batteries.
I would get a second ASAP. That will lower the voltage drop from the load.

Also, most inverters are draining a hefty wattage just from being on.
It will not take long to deplete your battery under way.

 

[RV8R]

Notice the voltage drop indicated on your inverter.
Roughly 3000W draw, and your battery is reading 0% voltage.
12V inverters have a HUGE draw on the batteries.
I would get a second ASAP. That will lower the voltage drop from the load.

Also, most inverters are draining a hefty wattage just from being on.
It will not take long to deplete your battery under way.

120vac Fridge ( inexpensive )
VS
12vdc Fridge ( expensive )

@solidseb

At my 100% Off Grid Cabin which is almost 100% Solar Powered ( gasoline generator if runs of crappy weather ) & I am north of the 49 Parallel, I have a 12vdc ARB Fridge. It uses typically 250Wh per day. Very efficient.

My point is this in regards to your system; If I understand it correctly you would need to keep your inverter on 24/7 for your fridge. If you get an efficient 12vdc fridge, then the wasted energy running the inverter would be reduced to approximately 1.5 hours to 2.5 hours ,,, not 24 hours.

Say an inverter is 20W standby energy @ 24 hours that is 480Wh. Almost twice the energy of my fridge.


************


So at my Cabin I have yet to install a Victron 12|3000|120. I pondered getting an inexpensive 120vac fridge. My quandary is, I will be doubling my energy use of my current fridge on inverter standby alone. The other issue is the heat and possibly noise that the inverter will introduce inside my small cabin.

Decisions Decisions

If I were to start over, I would consider 24vdc or even 48vdc. My 12vdc is centralized, so the wire runs are fairly short. I have pre wired 120vac before closing up the walls ,,, so it is there.

I will probably be installing that Victron Inverter & keep the 12vdc fridge so I can keep the inverter off when not needed.

I originally setup this system for efficiency, but these systems tend to gain weight over the years.

Currently my Cabin use is about 500Wh to 750Wh per day. Here is a screenshot I took just now, but day 3 & 4 are actually late October 2023 when I disabled the system for winter storage;



Yesterday’s weather was sun, cloud, & a little rain, still peaked 310W out of 3-100W in series ( 60V @ 5A). I only have 1/2 my 600W array hooked up.

There is a lot of data displayed on these graphs. Very helpful to assist in diagnosis if there is ever a problem, or if tweaking for performance.

 

[SparkyGage]

Thanks a lot for your reply.
I already have the appliances and everything is AC.
Fridge : running non stop at aprox. 130W it's a portable camping fridge
Microwave : 10-15 min a day at 1000W
Water boiler : 10-15 min a day at 500W
AC : 1-2h a day at 800W (mostly before sleep to adjust the temp if not comfortable enough)
Fan : If AC not realistic, can run on battery but if plugged around 200W

I will get another 300aH eventually to help power all those.
As for solar panels I don't think I can fit more than 400W. I would charge the batteries on shore power when possible and otherwise rely on the solar panels.
I'm also thinking about adding an alternator to my engine to help with that.

One of the big question I've got now is what kind of fuse do I need to connect the battery(s) to the inverter.
was thinking a 500a.

A second IDENTICAL battery in PARALLEL is a DO IT NOW for your setup. That said, you have most of the capacity you need but as Supervstech pointed out, that inverter is going to be a huge draw, even at idle. Your number indicate a unit half that size (and with probably half the idle consumption) would work for you. But a proper parallel battery setup is your first priority: (corrected comment) connecting the batteries neg to neg and pos to pos and NegBat1 and PositiveBat2 to the system.

You need to figure how many Square Feet of panels you can expose to the sun, multiply by 15 (That's 135 watts per sq meter) and that's how many watts you can expect under IDEAL circumstances. Occasionally you would see better. Usually, you will see less. This is why I completely ditched the idea of panels on my 23'. I figured a panel off my stern would give me at best a 10% boost to my battery, so I'm saving up for another battery and large array at my shop. You can probably handle a larger array, but you probably still need to think of it as a booster to your system and not the primary charger.

 

[solidseb]

Ok so my bad, I checked again and the "Fridge" cooler box uses 45W in Max and 36W in eco mode.
Also there is a 12V cigarette lighter socket included.. Guess I can plug that directly to the battery ?
If not I can plug it to the inverter with eco mode.

 

[RV8R]

A second IDENTICAL battery in PARALLEL is a DO IT NOW for your setup. That said, you have most of the capacity you need but as Supervstech pointed out, that inverter is going to be a huge draw, even at idle. Your number indicate a unit half that size (and with probably half the idle consumption) would work for you. But a proper parallel battery setup is your first priority: connecting at NegBat1 and PositiveBat2.

You need to figure how many Square Feet of panels you can expose to the sun, multiply by 15 (That's 135 watts per sq meter) and that's how many watts you can expect under IDEAL circumstances. Occasionally you would see better. Usually, you will see less. This is why I completely ditched the idea of panels on my 23'. I figured a panel off my stern would give me at best a 10% boost to my battery, so I'm saving up for another battery and large array at my shop. You can probably handle a larger array, but you probably still need to think of it as a booster to your system and not the primary charger.

Hi @sparkgage

This is confusing me ?

 

[solidseb]

A second IDENTICAL battery in PARALLEL is a DO IT NOW for your setup. That said, you have most of the capacity you need but as Supervstech pointed out, that inverter is going to be a huge draw, even at idle. Your number indicate a unit half that size (and with probably half the idle consumption) would work for you. But a proper parallel battery setup is your first priority: connecting at NegBat1 and PositiveBat2.

You need to figure how many Square Feet of panels you can expose to the sun, multiply by 15 (That's 135 watts per sq meter) and that's how many watts you can expect under IDEAL circumstances. Occasionally you would see better. Usually, you will see less. This is why I completely ditched the idea of panels on my 23'. I figured a panel off my stern would give me at best a 10% boost to my battery, so I'm saving up for another battery and large array at my shop. You can probably handle a larger array, but you probably still need to think of it as a booster to your system and not the primary charger.

So the boat is 34" and I don't think I can reasonably handle more than 2x200W on the bimini I'm currently ordering. The stern is rather narrow.

I can get another lithium to put in parrallel but I'm starting to wonder if it's not overkill for my need and also rather impossible to charge with only 400W of solar. ( alternator to come soon).
I still have a few weeks to exchange the inverter, would it be better to take a smaller one ? If so what would be good? 2000W ? 3000W ?
A second lithium is possible but it's a good 800$ to add to my already expensive new setup.