New Ontario Utility Rates coming - good or bad for DIY Solar?

[OffGridForGood]

Yes, use the smart plug between - gives you easy controls and programing. heck you can turn it on and off anywhere with internet connection with your phone!

 

[kennyb]

I've got a call in to the solarpowerstore here in Canada... they're going to price out a small 5kW solar system for me (hopefully get the grant), and also a small maybe 120V inverter/small battery backup (14kWh I believe is the smallest UL9541 available ATM), and see what that costs.

I had started the Greener Homes Loan application back in March 2022, hopefully it's still open. I have reached out to them as well to inquire. If that is the case, I can get it covered by the loan...

In the process of looking at a heatpump laundry dryer, or a 110V All-in-one washer/dryer. GE has one in Canada. Can't find the LG or Samsung offerings yet up here.

Alternatively, I may MacGyver a system to cover a few of the evening loads on a 'portable' system. (Essentially removing 4-5 circuits from the breaker panel and switching them over to the inverter.

24V 280Ah DIY battery & BMS (6.7kWH)
3000W 120V Pure Sine Inverter (Amazon)
24V battery charger.

The battery and BMS are fairly straight forward. I would need a battery charger that can remember settings when unplugged/unpowered, or defaults to the proper settings when plugged in. Hoping to run the charger on a wall timer to capture the ULO rates. I figure if I can capture 4-5kWh of peak energy use, 81% efficiency in charging and inverting, I should save $245/yr on my peak rates. Assuming I can build it for under $1800CDN, payback would be 7 yrs.

The automated charging may not be possible, and if that's the case.... back to the drawing board.

Battery and inverter must be a matched pair to be ul9450.

The solar power stores battery is a rebadged gsl battery. The gsl battery is ONLY tested with the lux 12k. Even thought the eg4 is identical the ul9450 cert is only good for the lux12k.

 

[gmf001]

If you look at the super low overnight rate, plus daytime PV, it may take away a lot of the incetive to have batteries at all.
Winter storms and frequent power outages are my incentive for a large ESS system.

Resiliency is the big reason togo with batteries. I switched over to the ultra-low rate last month. Charging my car is about free now. Solar panels recently installed, so don't draw from the grid during the day. Batteries smooth out the bumps...

 

[Smittybells]

I'm currently trying to decipher the ESA code for ESS in Ontario.... some of it doesn't make sense....

field built battery can only be <1kWh capacity? what?

I would also have to put my electrical panel and inverter etc in a room with 5/8" drywall to make it 1hr fire proof.... I'm going to have to call someone and figure out if I can DIY battery in Ontario and pass inspection.

Let me know what you find out

 

[OffGridForGood]

I have been following along on a CEC electrical forum, they are chatting about a new version coming 'soon' to the CEC, since many of the current requirements were drafted during a time before LFP was the common battery in the market.
Meanwhile per the Canadian Electrical Code a field built battery is supposed to be "less than 1kWh" capacity. (I decided innovation was not to be stiffled with regulation and did my own 'experimental' battery development - there actually is an exception for this btw)
My understanding is - no DIY battery will pass an inspection in Ontario/Canada under the existing code requirements.

 

[Smittybells]

I'm currently trying to decipher the ESA code for ESS in Ontario.... some of it doesn't make sense....

field built battery can only be <1kWh capacity? what?

I would also have to put my electrical panel and inverter etc in a room with 5/8" drywall to make it 1hr fire proof.... I'm going to have to call someone and figure out if I can DIY battery in Ontario and pass inspection.

Let me know what you find

I have been following along on a CEC electrical forum, they are chatting about a new version coming 'soon' to the CEC, since many of the current requirements were drafted during a time before LFP was the common battery in the market.
Meanwhile per the Canadian Electrical Code a field built battery is supposed to be "less than 1kWh" capacity. (I decided innovation was not to be stiffled with regulation and did my own 'experimental' battery development - there actually is an exception for this btw)
My understanding is - no DIY battery will pass an inspection in Ontario/Canada under the existing code requirements.

The code is not user friendly at all. We have to have a system that's certified for insurance on our new off grid home. They certainly do not make it easy. Local electricians don't seem to know what I'm talking about

 

[OffGridForGood]

It is rather PITA the CEC hides behind a 'pay-wall' in the first place, considering how much of it's development was public money. I have been able to get copies (actual scans from a paper copy) online with some searching. It is not very helpful to have just Section 64, since it refers to other sections for grounding, cable requirements etc etc, you really need the full code to follow every requirement.

Electricians with experience in this area are few it seems, or they have experience with huge grid-scale installs but not homes generally. This is slowly changing, but you have to be picky about who you work with, and trust. Some that 'do solar' are only interested if they supply (and mark up) the equipment you will get. Adding to the costs.
I have seen and priced some complete systems based on Fronius - without batteries - that met all the code requirements. Not cheap but they were compliant. To meet the insurance and code requirements, you may need to consider a battery-less system with back up generator.
Then look into an EV with V2L for your battery backup.

 

[offgrid-curious]

You can get view access for CSA C22.1:21 here: https://www.csagroup.org/store/product/CSA C22.1:21/ if you are in Canada and register. It's not ideal because you can't search, but you do at least have access to the entire document for free.

 

[OffGridForGood]

That was an option I was thinking of... Put the relay/solenoid on one side of the leads between the charger and battery.... That would interupt the charging... <-- I think that's what you're suggesting.

I bought an EG4 Chargeverter - these are available from a few Ontario stores now, like Sudbury Solar.
The chargeverter can be disconnected from power - with an A/C relay powered by a 120v control side relay on a smart plug (mine is) and will keep it's memory settings even with the power supply cut off, as long as it is connected to the DC side without interruption.
It is easier to have AC side control for me, since this doesn't require a special DC rated relay.
My control relay is just a 40A 2P designed for A/C units, the control side is 120v AC that works perfectly with a smart plug so I have control anywhere I have phone service.

I was out of the area today, and saw on my phone a severe weather warning coming in - chances of hail, heavy rain and high winds - since the last few days were overcast and the ESS was only 53% I clicked on the smart plug to put some extra kWh into the ESS incase we had trouble coming. About six hours later, my spouse told me the hail missed us, and although it had rained hard and was windy, it had mostly missed our place. So I clicked on the smart plug app and turned the chargeverter off again, but now the ESS was 80% so I knew the family were good. - I really hate to use utility charging 'on-peak', but hard to beat peace of mind for a few dollars while I'm 300 miles away from home.

 

[OffGridForGood]

The code is not user friendly at all. We have to have a system that's certified for insurance on our new off grid home. They certainly do not make it easy. Local electricians don't seem to know what I'm talking about

With some of the Ontario retailers (Sudbury Solar, Solar Power Store) are offering EG4 line of products, which are listed together with batteries, I wonder if you could pair up an EG4 6000 and 14.3kWh battery pack - put it in an attached garage?

 

[DPC]

Nuclear. Can't shut it down at night

Its whats called a base power station they can slowly increase and decrease the power levels but its very slow so going.
Coal fired stations, or oil or plants co fired with gas and one of the tow previous have faster response time you can throttle them up and down over a few hours, but the efficiency drops off, a point comes when your just burning fuel to make steam.
Hydro plants can ramp up and and down much quicker I think its about 15 minutes from stopped to full power.
Then there are small diesel and gas powered plants.
These are usually turbines or reciprocating engines and they can run up to full power from a dead stop in a matter of seconds in some cases.
You need a mix of these...

Not many modern engines on Youtube I could find.
This is an OP, these have been built since the thirties and I am pretty sure they still make new ones.
Its taking a long time to run to speed and full power because this unit is cold starting.
In service as peak unit it would be kept hot to the touch at all times and go straight to work as soon as the Lube pumps from the power oil were done.

Its not a very big OP they came larger than this.
But a nice old girl one of many that are still out there.

A gas turbine Meh...
Just noisy

Small one also but they do the job.

 

[OffGridForGood]

We can all stop complaining about Inverter fan noise now!

 

[DPC]

Electricians with experience in this area are few it seems, or they have experience with huge grid-scale installs but not homes generally.

Training is a real problem .
Most large employers will not train unless its new equipment they want you to do a PM on.
You just need to follow a sheet to do that and tick boxes.
Most contractors only hire guys to tell them what to do.
You don't need to understand what your doing if you just follow directions.

The rational is training is expensive and if your employee is better trained than others he may expect more money.
If you don't pay more they quit...

I have not been trained to do anything new in over 25 years.
I have even forgotten more than I can think to question.
Its even possible that I am travelling backwards in time and eventually will not be able to do anything with anything made after 2000 lol

If major upgrades are to be done to homes, and industry to take advance of solar then it will require the government to get involved.

I remember years ago I knew stuff and I knew it real well.
Now that stuff is fast disappearing and I have no idea what goes inside black boxes let alone the rules around it.

 

[OffGridForGood]

Invest in yourself - do your own training.
That is why I am here! LOL

 

[DPC]

We can all stop complaining about Inverter fan noise now!

This old darling is BB blower
Brown Boveri ( BBC ) was a predecessor company to ABB today.

This old girl is probably driven by a 2500 hp motor, I can t recall how much air they pushed.
BUT MAN!!!!!!
LOUD is not even a good description of what they were like.
Age>
50s or 60s...

 

[DPC]

Invest in yourself - do your own training.
That is why I am here! LOL

Diminishing return training an old worker
And my employer does not pay any more for me to know any more.

When confronted with something I am not trained on I simply tell them I don't know and you better get someone in here who does.
Or I just break it a few times until I gradually figure it out.
The last part is the most expensive training of all.

Your how old?
A few years on a picket line will set you right.

I'm here for my own curiosity.