Rapid Shutdown Requirement for CA Permitting

[Cmiller17363]

I used TIGO for my rapid shutdown system. Pretty painless setup and all is well so far.

Tigo TS4-A-2F

The Tigo TS4-A-2F is a reliable, cost effective rapid shutdown solution that meets the latest module level shutdown requirements, including NEC 2017/2020. The TS4-A-2F is both IEC and UL certified for global acceptance. It is UL PVRSS certified for connectivity with the largest network of...

www.tigoenergy.com

Tigo Single Core RSS Transmitter (100A), Din Rail, 120/240VAC PS, Outdoor Enclosure

Signature Solar provides solar panels, off-grid solar systems, grid-tie, and hybrid systems. Quality solar inverters, bifacial solar panels, complete solar kits, solar batteries. Featuring brands such as EG4 Electronics with their solar battery, LifePower4 and EG4 LLifePower4 and EG4 LL

signaturesolar.com

 

[TheHappyNomads]

Seems like a pretty cool product and would solve the problem. How many of the modules did you need to purchase for your setup?

 

[zanydroid]

Those are two port ones so roughly .5 * number of panels

 

[400bird]

Seems like a pretty cool product and would solve the problem. How many of the modules did you need to purchase for your setup?

Tigo offers them for single panels and pairs of panels (two panels for one RSD module)

The RSD module for 2 panels puts the two panels in series.

 

[Cmiller17363]

I did the 2 solar panel RSD modules and have 8 RSD modules on my roof. The leads were plenty long enough to series connect the modules, but I did have to make some wires up to get my solar panel wiring to reach the RSD modules. I learned the difference between solar panels with portrait wires and solar panels with landscape wires

One array is 6 panels in series, the other is 10 panels in series. Both positive wires run through the coil on the transmitter and into their respective charge controllers. Startup happens within about 10 seconds and shutdown is within 20 or so seconds. So far, I am very happy with the product. My only concern is longevity given the brutal conditions the modules are exposed to but time will tell. If one module fails, I don't really know how to easily diagnose it. Not going to be fun, I assume.

 

[TheHappyNomads]

Note: If you connect a hybrid that parallels inverter to AC-input (a lot of them) then you are still subject to PG&E since you are operating a generation facility with output paralleled with PG&E grid..

I've been trying to find solid information about PG&E generation rules and regulations in a scenario like this where the generation isn't grid-tied. Since PG&E is a utility provider I find it hard to believe they have any jurisdiction on whether or not I'm generating PV on my property.

 

[zanydroid]

I've been trying to find solid information about PG&E generation rules and regulations in a scenario like this where the generation isn't grid-tied. Since PG&E is a utility provider I find it hard to believe they have any jurisdiction on whether or not I'm generating PV on my property.

There’s a section in Rule21/interconnection application for generation facilities about isolated mode. You can apply in isolated, zero export, and NEM. And for zero export there are parallel and momentary parallel

What are you trying to get out of, something like grid access fee or inspections? IE, how much effort is it worth to find the answer to that.

If you drop your usage to zero and still rely on grid for a decent probability event then that’s not super cool. If you buy enough batteries and have technician on call to match grid reliability long term, sure.

Plans and Inspections in california for solar are not onerous and IMO net positive if you are doing a complex DIY for first or second time.

 

[TheHappyNomads]

There’s a section in Rule21/interconnection application for generation facilities about isolated mode. You can apply in isolated, zero export, and NEM. And for zero export there are parallel and momentary parallel

What is the reference for this rule? This is all I'm trying to find out is where this information is communicated. Nothing I received in my permit app has any reference to PG&E at all.

What are you trying to get out of, something like grid access fee or inspections? IE, how much effort is it worth to find the answer to that.

I'm not trying to get out of anything. I'm trying to figure out how to best setup and implement my system without unnecessary complications and red tape. I want to be safe, obviously, but I am piecing together a very DIY system and so I feel like the information about how to ensure safety and permitability is muddy at best.

I am also genuinely curious why PG&E would have oversight/jurisdiction over generation that doesn't touch or interface with the grid.

If you drop your usage to zero and still rely on grid for a decent probability event then that’s not super cool.

Why not? What would be the issue with generating most/all of my own energy with grid as back up when there's insufficient PV or I drain my battery storage but still need to turn on the lights?

Plans and Inspections in california for solar are not onerous and IMO net positive if you are doing a complex DIY for first or second time.

I'm not sure if I know whether or not I can agree with this. The permit app from my city seems VERY simple and straightforward. And yet, it also calls for listing applicable codes and I'm sure countless unnamed things that will get flagged during plan review.

 

[Ampster]

Since PG&E is a utility provider I find it hard to believe they have any jurisdiction on whether or not I'm generating PV on my property.

They don't technically have jurisdiction..But as pointed out in Rule 21 and often stated in NEM agreements, they try to infer jurisdiction. As noted earlier, they use the term. "parallel operation" to try to gain control over generatation. At the most in a NEM agreement one might be in violation of a contractual arrangement but that is not jurisdiction, and it limits their ability to enforce any rules. It is not violation of a criminal statute but one should get the required building permits. The building department does have jurisdiction and enforcement ability for that aspect but it is unrelated to any which PG&E might have. Of course this is just my anonymous opinion.

In the context of the title of the thread, RSD requirements are the jurisdiction of the building department not PG&E.

 

[zanydroid]

What is the reference for this rule? This is all I'm trying to find out is where this information is communicated. Nothing I received in my permit app has any reference to PG&E at all.

You go through a separate process with PG&E that can be done in parallel with AHJ if you want

Standard NEM Process & Requirements

Solar, wind and hybrid renewable energy projects of less than 30 kilowatts (kW) require a Standard Net Energy Metering (NEM) Interconnection Agreement with PG&E. Our team is here to help ensure your project has a successful, safe and reliable interconnection to the grid.

www.pge.com

Note this only covers NEM, unfortunately I didn’t bookmark the much more complex rules I alluded to. Not sure it’s worth my looking up for you or others because it’s quite rare to use (they’re for big facilities) and I was only using it to understand some theorycrafting for future hardware/certifications.

Why not? What would be the issue with generating most/all of my own energy with grid as back up when there's insufficient PV or I drain my battery storage but still need to turn on the lights?

If the infra to your house has remaining capital costs to pay off and operating costs that depend on X on grid KWh consumed to pay, and they decide that they need to impose a different cost recovery mechanism (grid access fees) for solar to make things sustainable, wouldn’t dodging the grid access fees be free riding?

I'm not sure if I know whether or not I can agree with this. The permit app from my city seems VERY simple and straightforward. And yet, it also calls for listing applicable codes and I'm sure countless unnamed things that will get flagged during plan review.

My AHJ’s vendor for plan review spams a ton of red ink onto my self drafted plans with the code text to quote.

If you get someone to draft plans ($500-600, these are stamped out by the 10,000s by the companies that do this) like I did for my ongoing solar DIY, it all gets out in there for you.

 

[zanydroid]

I feel like the information about how to ensure safety and permitability is muddy at best.

Safety is in NEC and interconnect is in the NEM link. If you can create your system in the NEM application web app 98% chance it will get approved.

And you should probably do this before buying stuff.

NEC details can be delegated by buying a kit that includes planset, for a modest markup.

 

[zanydroid]

FWIW my approach was to learn NEC up to 90-95% confidence and then hire out the plans to cover the remaining %/ and in case I dunning kruegered myself. Also I really hate pasting in all the code references and feeling really inefficient using the drafting software poorly.

Another benefit of this plan outsourcing is that if I turned out to only be able to learn 50% I can still finish the project by getting the plans and parroting them precisely into reality

I don’t believe it’s easy to outsource NEM application (but it’s done via a web app so it’s really not that bad).

The complexity that would have been nice to delegate was NEM2 to 3 transition but any professional that knows how to do it would have rationally focused their efforts on hustling highest margin business, which isn’t supporting DIY.