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Schneider Conext SW 4048 does NOT list Lithium as battery option. Why?

Old_Skewler

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After reading the Schneider Conext SW 4048 manual I was not able to determine whether it would work with my EG-4 LifePower4 Lithium battery. It raised me concerns since the product literature does not mention lithium batteries at all.

Could someone clarify why this inverter, as well as the Magnum Energy MSPAE-4448 do not list lithium batteries as an option?

And a follow up question: would these lithium batteries (EG-4) work or not with these inverters? I suspect the answer will be that they would work but not necessarily communicate with neither inverter via BMS and therefore they would fall under "CUST" battery category under the inverter?


Thanks in advance!
 
One thing I think I've read before about Schneider inverters is that they have a very large initial amp draw to fill their capacitors, to the point that the BMS is shutting down.

Because Schneider is oriented around a lot of commercial/professional installations, I think they just don't want to be bothered with "tricks" like charging capacitors with a light bulb.
 
Yeah, Schneider is very strict about battery partnerships and compatibility. I reckon it's just like you said, they are one of the more pro-oriented companies and they don't want to be bothered with diy.

As far as the lifepower battery goes, if you can get it to pre-charge your inverter, it should function fine. As long as you don't exceed their recommended 30a.
 
Yeah, Schneider is very strict about battery partnerships and compatibility. I reckon it's just like you said, they are one of the more pro-oriented companies and they don't want to be bothered with diy.

As far as the lifepower battery goes, if you can get it to pre-charge your inverter, it should function fine. As long as you don't exceed their recommended 30a.
Things might have changed since they now seem to be cozy with Signature Solar.
The Installation company owner down from the road from me loves Schneider equipment, says they are reliable but he also says that they have not been keeping up with the times, so he moved over to Outback and Sol-Ark.

Worst company I have seen for DIY is SMA. They make it pretty clear that your business is not really wanted unless it's coming through one of their authorized installers.
 
I’ve been using my GYLL battery with a CSW4048 24/7/365 for over a year now.

No problems at all. Use custom battery settings as you choose.

I did spend 30 seconds doing a manual precharge with a cheap resistor once, over a year ago. ?
 
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I’ve been using my GYLL battery with a CSW4048 24/7/365 for over a year now.
Is the GYLL battery a type of lithium rack battery? Similar to the EG4?
No problems at all. Use custom battery settings as you choose.
Exactly my thoughts.

I did spend 30 seconds doing a manual precharge with a cheap resistor once, over a year ago. ?
How did you know you had to go thru with it? My eg4 battery has a disconnect switch on them, would I still need the resistor or could I just make sure I first hook the battery while its breaker is off?
 
The GYLL is the old skewl EG4. See here :


You don’t really “need” precharge. It’s just more kind to all the components that suffer the brief inrush current. I “sparked” most of my equipment before I learned about precharge and fortunately it all survived. Some of it almost a decade old.

Since I knew the GYLL didn’t have precharge built in I did the manual thing.

Truth be told, I have seen so many problems reported with built in precharge I hope to never own a battery with that in it.

It is so quick, cheap, and stupid simple to do manually I feel that built in precharge is a solution in search of a problem ?.

Here is what I use :


Or if you have an incandescent light bulb that will also do the trick.

Or……. Just flip the breaker and let the electrons fly.
 
Do you happen to know or guess whether the newer EG4s have precharge?
I believe the current line up does, but I'm no expert.

There's a long thread (1000 posts) of Signature Solar failing to understand the situation and the poster/owner of the system not trying an external precharge resistor.

Considering how Signature Solar has treaded that thread and some others, I'd look into the SOK battery. Looks similar in many respects, just a different vendor.

 
As JoeHam mentioned, custom battery type is what you'll have to use. Just typing as I think here, I come up with a few things to be cognizant of:

- Lead Acid can be recharged in a less-regulated manner than LiFePO4 because there is a more pronounced voltage rise as state of charge in the pack rises that can be more easily used to determine where in the charging cycle the batteries are at. This doesn't work with Lithium because their voltage curve is so much flatter throughout their state of charge. FLA/SLA will also tend to soak up recharge at a rate they're comfortable with regardless of available current where as LiFePO4 will easy over-current if the current is available, although current in the first stage should still be limited with FLA/SLA to about a third of their Ah rating. Individual cells within a string of lead-acid cells tend to naturally equalize during recharge because of the relationship between the voltage and current with the state of charge curve, unlike Lithium chemistry where such voltage fluctuations between cells would run away uncontrollably without a BMS. Lithium can be recharged at the same rate as the Ah capacity, or as limited by the BMS whichever is less. It is preferable to use State of Charge to regulate LiFePO4 usage, and in Schneider's lineup only the XW Pro combined with a Conext Battery Monitor (or other supported third-party BMS in closed-loop mode) is supported to do that. So, up until the XW Pro, all Schneider/Xantrex/Trace recharging schemes have been and continue to be a combination of voltage and time-based. You can use the 3-stage charging but the float (stage 3) setpoint is going to be a little higher than what you're used to seeing, but in practice LiFePO4 don't need to be floated.
- The rate of discharge from LiFePO4 has to be limited to rated spec, for a EG4 that's going to be 100A continuous and up to 150A for up to 3 seconds, or the BMS will trip into overload.
- The rate of recharge has to be limited to the rated spec, for an EG4 that's 100A continuous and up to 120A for less than 2 seconds, or the BMS will trip. Check if you've got a setting for this so you can limit the SW's 45A to stay under the 100A limit when you take your DC-coupled Solar into account.
- Temperature de-rating for LiFePO4 is different from Lead Acid and needs to be configured manually in the battery menus of the inverter. See what's available there. I can send you screen shots of what an XW Pro gives you options for.
- FLA/SLA recharge stages are Bulk/Absorb/Float holding at 100% SoC at the end. LiFePO4 is going to have different voltage triggers for each stage that all need to be configured manually when using a custom battery type.
- Schneider/Xantrex/Trace inverters are legendarily regarded for their load-surge capacity. Yours has a rating of 7000W for 5 seconds 4000W for 30 minutes, and a continuous capacity of 3800W. It can pull 150A from the battery at the extreme - right at the limit of the BMS in an EG4. It's an avoidable scenario with load management because you don't ever want to have to deal with the headache of a Schneider inverter losing DC bus.
- Any settings for equalization charge or schedule has to be disabled for use with LiFePO4.
- The preferred State-of-Charge operating range of Lead Acid (Flooded or Sealed) is from 50% to 100%. For Lithium Iron Phosphate it's 5% to 95%. Just as staying within that range is critical to longevity of FLA/SLA, it is just as important with LiFePO4 with the latter being much less forgiving.

For your setup easiest solution to prevent any overcurrent scenario concerns would be to use two EG4's in parallel, and then all those battery limits effectively double. As for initial start-up, use your own resistor circuit wired in parallel to the main DC inverter breaker, with its own breaker or shutoff switch, and pre-charge it yourself. Internal capacitors in anything that say "Schneider" on it can be assume to be huge.

State of Charge, as expressed in percentage, is the metric you've got to monitor and control with Lithium.
 
yes, LiFePO4 batteries work with the inverters.
yes, you would use the CUSTOM battery settings.

no, they WILL NOT work in a 'closed loop' - there is no communication of the BMS over the Xanbus network for anything other then the 2 battery manufacturers that Schneider 'approved'. can't remember off the top of my head who the companies are, i just remember the prices being astronomical!
 
yes, LiFePO4 batteries work with the inverters.
yes, you would use the CUSTOM battery settings.

no, they WILL NOT work in a 'closed loop' - there is no communication of the BMS over the Xanbus network for anything other then the 2 battery manufacturers that Schneider 'approved'. can't remember off the top of my head who the companies are, i just remember the prices being astronomical!
Um that "approved" is the very costly UL9540 testing, which I have been told is in the $250K range in cost and there is no reason to have closed loop connections with untested / unverified hardware.

They are hardly the only ones that do this, all the tier one equipment is the same

Discover AES SimpliPhi Fortress Power?
 
i'm under the impression its the two companies that schneider allowed to see how their Xanbus protocol worked. that's the reason those BMS's/batteries work with the Schneider equipment.

there are OTHER batteries are "UL tested" or 'approved', and yet, they don't work with the Schneider equipment...
 
i'm under the impression its the two companies that schneider allowed to see how their Xanbus protocol worked. that's the reason those BMS's/batteries work with the Schneider equipment.

there are OTHER batteries are "UL tested" or 'approved', and yet, they don't work with the Schneider equipment...

All tier one inverter companies will work with battery manufactures to get products UL9540 certified, but the cost is on the battery manufacture to pay for the UL testing, which is very expensive.

Xanbus IS Canbus, it is no different than other Canbus paired devices, just packets of data back and forth. Just like all tier one companies they don't provided the details of the data shared to the public as they don't want untested configurations in the wild and then be held liable for damages.

The real issue is UL mandates not only that batteries and inverters both are listed, but they are listed as certified pairing. I'm not current in all the SunSpec alliance workings with UL codes, but I believe the long term solution is to have something similar to SAE J1772 ( EV chargers ) for BMS communications, then there would not be a need for the paired listing.
 
interesting. i'm clearly not savvy on the particulars! LOL!

well, at the end of the day (for the OP), LiFePO4 chemistry works with his (or basically any) inverter. just not BMS supported.

and, honestly, i don't see WHY people care that their BMS communicates with the rest of the system. the BMS just watches over the battery, and the system just gives the BMS power... i don't see under what circumstance or what the system can even DO with the info. as long as the settings are all correct, that is!
 
After reading the Schneider Conext SW 4048 manual I was not able to determine whether it would work with my EG-4 LifePower4 Lithium battery. It raised me concerns since the product literature does not mention lithium batteries at all.

Could someone clarify why this inverter, as well as the Magnum Energy MSPAE-4448 do not list lithium batteries as an option?

And a follow up question: would these lithium batteries (EG-4) work or not with these inverters? I suspect the answer will be that they would work but not necessarily communicate with neither inverter via BMS and therefore they would fall under "CUST" battery category under the inverter?


Thanks in advance!

The Sw Works with my lithium batteries . I didn't like using it w/o the battery monitor though rather than using voltage as an indicator . When you setup your sw you can update the firmware & it even shows lithium as an option . To each there own but i use custom settings instead being that is what schneider feels the settings should be . I set mine to the battery setting. Mine doesn't have ability to communicate with the batteries BMS bc of canbus the batteries use vs Modbus Schneider uses but that isnt that big of a deal to me being the battery monitor add on does such a good job .
 
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