diy solar

diy solar

Solar rumors, need answers

Santa

Santa

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Nov 10, 2019
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So, some people on a DLIVE chat say producing solar equipment produces a lot of pollution. Also, after an EMP, batteries won't work some are saying. Also charge controllers will be shot. Any feedback? (I have a Faraday bag, but hard to get in a battery and can't use the battery if its in the bag.)
 
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SO if there is an EMP and you are on grid power would you be better off?
If it is a true concern build a Faraday cage solar shed.
I have no doubt that creating solar panels will create some pollution. However there life cycle should far outweigh the negatives
Batteries are another issue.
 
Craig said:
SO if there is an EMP and you are on grid power would you be better off?
If it is a true concern build a Faraday cage solar shed.
I have no doubt that creating solar panels will create some pollution. However there life cycle should far outweigh the negatives
Batteries are another issue.
Click to expand...
Great idea about the faraday shed! Thanks!
 
Im not sure about commercial chinese silicon cells but all silicon is doped (boron, gallium, phosphorus) and used for many years in space with extreme ionized radiation exposure.
 
It depends on the "EMP": If you're talking about a true nuclear detonation at high altitude then YES, your electronics will probably be cooked by the 50kv/meter radio pulse unless the pulse is attenuated. Think of electronics in a microwave oven for a second and thats basically what happens. It'll also induce insanely huge voltage spikes in the power lines, faster than over voltage protections can kick in with most things and will zap anything attached to the grid.

Your solar cells might blow out a copper trace depending on how robust the traces are, I dont know enough about the innards of a solar cell to say for sure one way or another.

Attenuation is done by having a layer of highly conductive material to absorb the pulse and turn it into heat (faraday cage) completely enclosing what you want protected. If your radio or phone works inside your cage then its not going to work. What you want protected has to be completely isolated from outside input, which means no power cords or anything.

Hopefully this is a low probability event but who the hell knows.

If you're talking about a Carrington Event type flare/coronal mass ejection which moves the planetary magnetic field lines around which then induce huge voltages in the grids long power lines then NO your non-grid electronics will NOT be fried. The grid will go down and stay down because it just melted the distribution transformers and distribution lines but at your house will be okay if you have anything like a lightning arrestor in place on the grid input to your house. This is a relatively slow event and only affects really long powerlines and things plugged into the grid.

This will absolutely happen again and probably within 20 years. Its just a matter of time until the sun spits out a really strong X20+ class flare again only this time the Earth is in the path. The sun spits out X20+ class flares fairly regularly but we've managed to dodge them since 1859.

If you really want to know the specifics hop on the http://www.empcommission.org/ web site and just start reading.

Shelter, Water, Food, Security.
 
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A battery is chemical storage.
It's hard for an EMP/CME to do anything to a battery.

Think electro-magnetic link,
What will be most effected are long runs of wire.
Hundreds of miles of electrical conductors well above the magnetic load of the earth for that magnetic wave front to act upon... Voltage spikes will happen.

Your small wiring runs will be much safer, and batteries will be unaffected.
 
1 Isolated / insulated Sea Container and your all set. Mine sits on a set of wood 6x6 rails without ground contact, zero signal in there but one tiny glitch, for some reason the container itself has a slight magnetic field.
 
PS. If you dont want to spend the money on copper screening, sheets of galvanized sheet metal work pretty good too: two films of a pretty decent conductor separated by a not-so-good conductor. The amount of shielding you get is directly proportionate to how good the conductive material is and how thick it is. An example is a 32 gallon outdoor heavily galvanized garbage can is actually a decent means of shielding, as long as there are no gaps.
 
I was in the military when EMP was the 'Boogy Man' and they were spending like crazy to try and harden everything against it...
Two things I learned,
1. A magnetic field stops a magnetic field in it's tracks.
The lab monkeys used refrigerator magnets (vinyl sheet magnets) to protect their computers when they were pulsing the big EMP generator gadget.

The big 'Secret' here is, the magnetic field has to be MOVING to induce (induction) to build voltage in electrical conductors. While a ferrous metal box attracts the magnetic field, and dissipates it, a static magnetic field absorbs the Moving field (unsupported) 100%.
Save those pizza joint and fridge magnets and stick them to your box/cage.

2. Most fuel injected vehicles from the 80s-early 90s survived.
Those lab monkeys zapped dozens of cars, most would shut off, but restart after the zap.
The wiring is sheltered inside sheet metal, run next to ferrous metal, etc, also short runs of wire.
Not saying you won't have every trouble code pop up, but the vehicles did operate.

You have to remember the under hood of an early 80s vehicle is an EM nightmare,
Stupid high voltage pulsing ignition, amperage pulsing wiper & heater-A/C motor, an alternator that pulsing both amperage and throwing a BIG magnetic field, a pretty hostile place for sensors, wiring, etc.
It always amazes people when you show them twisted wire pairs, shielding, wire bundles run next to magnetic loads (engine block, intake, sheet metal/frame) to reduce the line noise, EM/RF so the early computers can do their jobs...

I can't tell you about vehicles from later, I separated from the military in '95.
They don't exactly keep you in the loop on secret research after you separate.
I'm just 'Joe Average' now.
 
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Maast said:
It depends on the "EMP": If you're talking about a true nuclear detonation at high altitude then YES, your electronics will probably be cooked by the 50kv/meter radio pulse unless the pulse is attenuated. Think of electronics in a microwave oven for a second and thats basically what happens. It'll also induce insanely huge voltage spikes in the power lines, faster than over voltage protections can kick in with most things and will zap anything attached to the grid.

Your solar cells might blow out a copper trace depending on how robust the traces are, I dont know enough about the innards of a solar cell to say for sure one way or another.

Attenuation is done by having a layer of highly conductive material to absorb the pulse and turn it into heat (faraday cage) completely enclosing what you want protected. If your radio or phone works inside your cage then its not going to work. What you want protected has to be completely isolated from outside input, which means no power cords or anything.

Hopefully this is a low probability event but who the hell knows.

If you're talking about a Carrington Event type flare/coronal mass ejection which moves the planetary magnetic field lines around which then induce huge voltages in the grids long power lines then NO your non-grid electronics will NOT be fried. The grid will go down and stay down because it just melted the distribution transformers and distribution lines but at your house will be okay if you have anything like a lightning arrestor in place on the grid input to your house. This is a relatively slow event and only affects really long powerlines and things plugged into the grid.

This will absolutely happen again and probably within 20 years. Its just a matter of time until the sun spits out a really strong X20+ class flare again only this time the Earth is in the path. The sun spits out X20+ class flares fairly regularly but we've managed to dodge them since 1859.

If you really want to know the specifics hop on the http://www.empcommission.org/ web site and just start reading.

Shelter, Water, Food, Security.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the detailed response! I have a faraday bag that fits a battery. I'm now thinking of getting an extra battery and storing it in there just in case...
 
JeepHammer said:
A battery is chemical storage.
It's hard for an EMP/CME to do anything to a battery.

Think electro-magnetic link,
What will be most effected are long runs of wire.
Hundreds of miles of electrical conductors well above the magnetic load of the earth for that magnetic wave front to act upon... Voltage spikes will happen.

Your small wiring runs will be much safer, and batteries will be unaffected.
Click to expand...
OK, that's good news then. I won't need to store an extra battery in my faraday bag then?
 
JH is quite correct to a certain point. I was an IT Engineer with National Defence, all our protected equipment (Tempest Class) was also in effect, EMP Shielded by the very nature of the Shielding required for Tempest classification. That is the extreme as it stops all RF & EM emissions of every kind to & from that equipment. I also ran systems in a variety of Hardened environments and was surprised at how some were quite simple and how well they tested out.

There is an interesting side note on that... In one facility we had to have a hardened building an after a tedious pile of red tape & time they built the structure quite quickly. We watched and were surprised / shocked when we saw then getting to the exterior finish over the insulated concrete... They laid a double layer of galvanised steel mesh to spray a stucco / pebbledash type of compound over it... We thought WTH is up with that ! Sure enough a week later the testing began and guess what, it worked perfectly... no EM/RF passing through the walls at all.... Poor mans Faraday Cage ? I dunno, maybe but it worked. IMO They should do that for schools to prevent cell phones … A Few BARS & Restaurants have installed Faraday Cage tech to let customers enjoy some peace...

No Signal: The Bar with a Faraday Cage | Helix Magazine

When I lived in the UK, I spent a significant amount of time in cozy, British pubs.
helix.northwestern.edu helix.northwestern.edu
 
Hmmmmm VERY interesting. I was given a JOBOX the other day-one of those big steel toolbox chests you see in the back of pickup trucks, or moved around by forklifts on job sites. I just realized that it's the perfect size for my next battery bank, and of course all steel. But what the hell am I supposed to do with my hat??

15508145.jpg
 
EMP has been blown all out of proportion saying it's going to 'Kill Everything' electronic...

The truth of the matter is it will depend on how sensitive the electrical conductive device is,
And how exposed it is.
If you learn about the real history of EMP it's not the 'Boogy Man' everyone thinks it is, and it's fairly easy to protect against.

The first nuclear EMP effect was observed when an above ground nuclear bomb was detonated.
The generators powering all the test & record equipment shut down, but restarted.
It didn't kill the testing & recording equipment, it didn't cook equipment on the other ends of those cable runs to the bunkers, etc.

After WWII Radar was pumped WAY up, so strong it effected the electrical system of aircraft...
The cold war produced the strongest microwave beam radar, and the aircraft had to be hardened against the radar. Same energy transfer principal as EMP...

Short runs of wiring simply won't be acted upon by a moving magnetic field like long runs will.
This is simple electro-magnetic induction that causes over current conditions, cooking components.
The SCIENCE FICTION version is an EMP/CME will melt everything that conducts electricity into slag, while leaving every vehicle body, bridge, everything else made of metal intact... You can't have it both ways... Except in science fiction.

While the semi-conductors in your charge controller (upper voltage limits in specific) *Might* be effected in the 12 feet of conductor between your panels & charge controller,
The PANELS will likely survive and will charge the batteries directly.

There is exactly ZERO evidence that small solar will be affected at all.
Short runs of conductors that can't build the millions of volts long runs will,
Batteries are HUGE buffers for voltage spikes, batteries being chemical storage won't be effected at all.
As per FCC regulations, charge controllers & inverters are SHIELDED against EM/RF 'Noise', and that shielding works both ways...

Keep in mind that anything unhooked or turned off is DISCONNECTED from a COMPLETED CIRCUIT,
When the circuit is NOT completed, it doesn't matter what the 'POTENTIAL' energy is on that circuit,
Without a completed circuit there is no damage.

Once you go through a lightening strike or two, you start to learn what *Can*, and *Can't* happen.
This is why my primary harness is built as 'Bullet Proof' as I can make it, and I have specific charge controllers on the same cart with the batteries they will service.
After a lightening strike, I'm up & running fairly quickly.

*IF* you are directly under a nuclear bomb when it goes off, then electricity will be the last of your concerns.
Gamma bursts are the only way to produce an EMP of any size, and gamma isn't slowed down when popped inside the atmosphere, and there is no indication an indirect EMP blast will effect a small scale solar system.

Collect your 'Spares' as you find them for reasonable cost and the money is handy...

---------------

Now, keep in mind after decades of research and billions of dollars,
The US military recommends and is moving towards locally produced, decentralized power.
Solar Panels, wind generators, etc to get off fossil fuels and centralized power grids.

There are two primary concerns the military is worried about,
The first is 1s & 0s. Any power grid in the US can be taken down from a single computer from anywhere in the world.
The utilities have been warned for 3 decades to harden the grid control systems but refuse to because of cost.

The second is an EMP.
Consider an EMP weapon, specially built to maximize the EMP effect,
Then needs a lift vehicle (rocket) with PRECISE navigation control,
And you would also need a launch platform of some kind to get the lift vehicle supported while it was launched.

A computer and a phone connection is much easier...

Since I'm not 'Connected' I'm pretty safe from 'Hackers', they have to show up with wire cutters to do any damage.
Since I'm redundant, several strings of panels have to go down to cripple me.
I intentionally used simple/inexpensive parts so I could have 'Spares'.
I intentionally went Modular so no 'All-In-One' component can put me down, simply replace the stand alone modular component that failed and I'm back up and running.

Like the discussion on 'Off Grid Ranch', I'm not the most 'Efficient', I waste a few Watts here & there an 'All-In-One' system wouldn't, but I'm redundant and nearly bullet-proof.
It's just the way things worked out completely Off Grid.
 
JeepHammer said:
The SCIENCE FICTION version is an EMP/CME will melt everything that conducts electricity into slag, while leaving every vehicle body, bridge, everything else made of metal intact... You can't have it both ways... Except in science fiction.
Click to expand...
THANK YOU HOLLYWOOD ! Another example of the massive amount of misconceptions people have thanks to Hollywood Screen Writers...

Now, keep in mind after decades of research and billions of dollars,
The US military recommends and is moving towards locally produced, decentralized power.
Solar Panels, wind generators, etc to get off fossil fuels and centralized power grids.

There are two primary concerns the military is worried about,
The first is 1s & 0s. Any power grid in the US can be taken down from a single computer from anywhere in the world.
The utilities have been warned for 3 decades to harden the grid control systems but refuse to because of cost.
Click to expand...
---> Privatised Utilities refused to do so because there is "no profit" in it and they see it as a superfluous expense. Consider how they run rough shod over most everything else that may affect their profits and are always ready & able to take Government subsidies to keep operating but without being responsible.

The US-DOD like most others are also looking to be independent of fuels for more & more equipment as that IS a weakness that can be manipulated resulting in failure.... Materiel and fuel supply lines can and are often disrupted in military ventures by the enemy.
 
Santa said:
So, some people on a DLIVE chat say producing solar equipment produces a lot of pollution. Also, after an EMP batteries won't work some are saying. Also charge controllers will be shot. Any feedback? (I have a Faraday bag, but hard to get in a battery and can't use the battery if its in the bag.)
Click to expand...

Anything man made will create pollution, so simply don't take your hardware as 'Disposable' or for granted...
The longer it's used, the more it offsets it's initial production pollution.

While the political/big energy argument has blown the pollution produced WAY out of proportion, for instance claiming the aluminum in the frames creates 10,000 times the pollution any other aluminum production does,
The silicone in solar panels creates 100,000 times, or more, pollution than the silicone for smart phones, etc.
Everything has its costs, no need to exaggerate the problem...

The 'Simple' truth is,
After the cost/pollution of creating the solar panels, there is no pollution in the service life.
While fossil fuel will turn 60% to 80% of those fossil fuels into NOTHING BUT pollution,
Burning fossil fuels is between 20% & 40% efficient, that's 80%-60% waste heat/pollution, and you can't change the laws of thermodynamics, it's always going to be that way.

Solar creates ZERO pollution during it's working life.

Once someone does large scale electro-chemical process for removing heavy metals from panels at the end of their lives, this *Can* be a closed cycle.
Right now it's not economically viable, so no one is doing it large scale.

---------

*IF* a CME (nature) decides to throw a fit, you will be good.
What gets through the magnetosphere won't effect your panels or electronics.

*IF* someone can pull together the multi-billion dollar (minimum) specialized nuclear device for an EMP,
Can get a lift vehicle to get that device into place inside the high atmosphere,
Have a guidence system to precisely locate that lift vehicle & nuclear device,
Can build a specialized launch platform for that lift vehicle,
And can track the ever moving magnetic field for the optimum place to park that EMP device,
Then you have to worry about something you can't do anything about.

Spare parts fixes anything an EMP can do...
Solar Panels, likely not effected by EMP, will charge batteries directly, YOU will have to monitor charging but they will still make DC current, and your batteries will still accept DC current.
Stick a cheap multi-meter in your bag.
 
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