Does Solar Pay for Itself? Is it worth it?
- Thread starter BentleyJ
- Start date
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
Water is a funny one. Here you either have "town water" or you don't.
If you have town water supply you pay a water usage charge but no service fee. The usage rates are stepped, the more you use, the higher the per kL usage charge. We are last on the town supply line but we are not all that far from the water supply pumping station and reservoir is up the hill from us.
Lots of properties here have water capture systems, mostly home and outbuilding capture systems feeding water tanks. Normal for homes outside of towns. Annual rainfall here is over 1500 mm/year (bit under 60 inches/year).
Town water is generally very good value here, hard to justify the cost of your own system if town water is available. We have a 5000 litre tank, mostly for garden use but it can serve as emergency backup if needed. It's not filtered/conditioned to be potable so would need boiling for safe drinking (no big deal) and certainly can be used for sanitation.
I was reviewing our water consumption recently and discovered just how much water was being wasted down a leaky loo. We were racking up over 1 kL/day and I started thinking, hang on, that surely can't be right?
It started pretty small and gradually evolved, but so slowly that you kind of don't notice and it was a toilet I rarely use. I fixed it.
A few months later the next bill came and our consumption made much more sense:
If you have town water supply you pay a water usage charge but no service fee. The usage rates are stepped, the more you use, the higher the per kL usage charge. We are last on the town supply line but we are not all that far from the water supply pumping station and reservoir is up the hill from us.
Lots of properties here have water capture systems, mostly home and outbuilding capture systems feeding water tanks. Normal for homes outside of towns. Annual rainfall here is over 1500 mm/year (bit under 60 inches/year).
Town water is generally very good value here, hard to justify the cost of your own system if town water is available. We have a 5000 litre tank, mostly for garden use but it can serve as emergency backup if needed. It's not filtered/conditioned to be potable so would need boiling for safe drinking (no big deal) and certainly can be used for sanitation.
I was reviewing our water consumption recently and discovered just how much water was being wasted down a leaky loo. We were racking up over 1 kL/day and I started thinking, hang on, that surely can't be right?
It started pretty small and gradually evolved, but so slowly that you kind of don't notice and it was a toilet I rarely use. I fixed it.
A few months later the next bill came and our consumption made much more sense:
Very common, a misadjusted float valve in the toilet tank, causing a very minor but constant leak into the overflow. I had a friend whose three toilets were all like that, fixed, they flushed the same but her well pump (which she could hear when it clicked on) came on less often. What alerted her was when the pump came on, when no water had been used for a while.
Zwy
Emperor Of Solar
That's been one of my goals, I can control my electricity costs in the future for retirement at a fixed expense today. One can see the events of the last few years that stable and cheap electricity prices are a thing of the past.
I don't plan on sitting in a recliner with a single 60W light bulb on in the room while wearing a snowmobile suit with the TV off (saves electricity) like a guy I know. True story.
I know some real characters, he bragged how his light bill was only $16 doing this.
wondering how you monitor the water usage, is it thru Home Assistant or thru the city water dept web site ?
Last month the HVAC didn’t need to run and I reviewed my Emporia app. To my surprise the highest energy user in the house was my son’s 100 gallon fish aquarium(pumps water and air, heater). I told him “Ya fish gotta die, …..Just kidding!” Just to make him aware of his amenities he’s got here. He’s turning more things off now Lol!
OffGridForGood
Catch, make or grow everything you can.
RV8R
Solar Enthusiast
I feel slightly responsible for the thread creep here, but “electricity” & other utilities are typically controlled by the Governments of the World. Unless one has a crystal ball, it is pure speculation. My post earlier was if they can tax you for not using water from “the water grid”, then they can tax you for not using electricity from the grid.
I have no doubt that both the electrical grid rates will increase & so will the solar equipment costs. Inflation is a real thang, & the Governments are trying to fix it with increased borrowing costs. There are huge changes in Canada & the USA & I assume other Countries. The inflation in 2022 has huge in Canada & the borrowing rate was 0.25% the lowest in Bank of Canada history from conception 1935. As they only adjust it by 1/4% the next rate if lowered would have been 0% ,,, free money.
For the purpose of this thread & the question; Does Solar Pay for Itself ,,, IMO it Depends.
Identify the parameter & one can pencil it out.
In my case ,,, a very small sporadically used cabin 1000s of feet away from the nearest power pole & what I settled on was a 600W array & 250Ahr AGM and a backup $400 gasoline generator which I very rarely need to use it was a “no brainer”.
However, throw in different parameters & increased property values due to having an operational “grid service” the pencil strokes need to be erased & refigured. Maybe my property taxes increase with a grid service present?
Pencilling the now is easier than pencilling the now & the future.
I do not buy a vehicle for “resale value”, I buy it for my own use & the value to me.
I am not Pro Solar or Anti Solar ,,, I am Pro RV8R & that is where I vote with my bucks.
Did the OP state the parameters of the original thread question?
I have no doubt that both the electrical grid rates will increase & so will the solar equipment costs. Inflation is a real thang, & the Governments are trying to fix it with increased borrowing costs. There are huge changes in Canada & the USA & I assume other Countries. The inflation in 2022 has huge in Canada & the borrowing rate was 0.25% the lowest in Bank of Canada history from conception 1935. As they only adjust it by 1/4% the next rate if lowered would have been 0% ,,, free money.
For the purpose of this thread & the question; Does Solar Pay for Itself ,,, IMO it Depends.
Identify the parameter & one can pencil it out.
In my case ,,, a very small sporadically used cabin 1000s of feet away from the nearest power pole & what I settled on was a 600W array & 250Ahr AGM and a backup $400 gasoline generator which I very rarely need to use it was a “no brainer”.
However, throw in different parameters & increased property values due to having an operational “grid service” the pencil strokes need to be erased & refigured. Maybe my property taxes increase with a grid service present?
Pencilling the now is easier than pencilling the now & the future.
I do not buy a vehicle for “resale value”, I buy it for my own use & the value to me.
I am not Pro Solar or Anti Solar ,,, I am Pro RV8R & that is where I vote with my bucks.
Did the OP state the parameters of the original thread question?
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
I've estimated the leak at its last flow rate was costing about $700/year in extra water charges. When I examined the toilet mechanism, I went and checked the other one and it was doing the same, just not as quickly. Same fix (which I doubt will last). They are old units and will be replaced in due course when we do some renovation work.
Obviously it was a gradually varying amount of water loss over time and likely cost us quite a lot but I can't say exactly how much. Quite possibly $1500 was literally flushed down the toilet and I had no idea.
One of the things which masked it was our water consumption did move up and down with some activity so was expected. 2018-2019 were dry Springs and water use was significantly higher as a result. Gardens were established, we added a new dwelling from Jan 2020 and so on.
Nothing fancy, just our billing data. The bills state what the previous and current bill water accumulation meter readings are, and I just kept a record of them. There is a water meter on the edge of our property which the council guy visits roughly quarterly to take a meter reading. Just a standard old accumulation meter.
I would actually like to have my own water meter which can be integrated into my Home Assistant system for automated monitoring. There are various options for that, some are devices which can attach to your existing meter and it reads the magnetic field pulse of the small rotation magnet in the meter, and uses a radio frequency to transmit the data to a base station which integrates into you home's smart system. Others you fit in line to with your existing water mains and they have their own metering methods. Some have quite a bit of smarts built in and can alert to leaks, even remotely or automatically shut the water off.
Now that i have addressed the leaks the imperative is lower, but pretty sure I might have reacted a lot faster had I been looking at data showing significantly water consumption when there should have been none. $1500 would have well and truly covered the cost of a metering device and a plumber.
Live 'n' learn.
Zwy
Emperor Of Solar
LED's cost more than regular bulbs, he is too cheap for that. Besides, that 60W bulb is providing heat.
He is pretty tight with a buck, he inherited over 500K from his mother because he received the same as his brother who told me.
I think he does this as a game to entertain himself on how cheap he can actually get by with.
Spunky
Solar Enthusiast
It's been pointed out, that DIY is cheaper than the Utility Co. doing the job.
So, when the question is posed;
Does Solar Pay for Itself? Is it worth it?
how does that apply to the traditional power plants, when the Utility Co. is the one doing the new solar plant (fields)?They are not doing like us, ie. building in our spare time on extra space we already have and sourcing 2nd hand or bargain panels and racking.
My crystal ball is showing a future utility bill increase.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2020
- Messages
- 20,948
San Jose, I have 3/4 acre lot. A dozen irrigation valves with drip lines to landscaping.
In the summer as plants start looking sad I extend the run times. Past years my bill hit $600 (for 2 months), this summer one bill was almost $1200.
I need to train my plants to dig for their own water. (City can't meter that!) Some established trees do well on their own, but my drip has been too shallow for what I've planted.
One of my toilets is a Sloan pressure flush (captive air tank). That had been quite reliable and doesn't leak.
They did issue a recall, because could explode and destroy the porcelain tank around it. Handy, because shortly after receiving replacement, at about 15 years old the original did start leaking.
Hope you charge him rent.
My mom let us live at home for free while going to school, but once we graduated and started a real job (making more than she did when she retired), she charged us a modest room & board.
The people in Carthage, North Carolina would think solar + batteries are worth it:
In the summer as plants start looking sad I extend the run times. Past years my bill hit $600 (for 2 months), this summer one bill was almost $1200.
I need to train my plants to dig for their own water. (City can't meter that!) Some established trees do well on their own, but my drip has been too shallow for what I've planted.
One of my toilets is a Sloan pressure flush (captive air tank). That had been quite reliable and doesn't leak.
They did issue a recall, because could explode and destroy the porcelain tank around it. Handy, because shortly after receiving replacement, at about 15 years old the original did start leaking.
LED's cost more than regular bulbs, he is too cheap for that. Besides, that 60W bulb is providing heat.
He is pretty tight with a buck, he inherited over 500K from his mother because he received the same as his brother who told me.
I think he does this as a game to entertain himself on how cheap he can actually get by with.
Hope you charge him rent.
My mom let us live at home for free while going to school, but once we graduated and started a real job (making more than she did when she retired), she charged us a modest room & board.
The people in Carthage, North Carolina would think solar + batteries are worth it:
Nobodybusiness
Collecting the leftovers of the Great Sky Reactor.
Just goes to show you how fragile the grid really is..
Just think about a concerted effort across the country.
Exactly... same position here.
LEDs cost less....especially in light (no pun intended) that you can no longer get them in the US. Incandescent phase out started years ago, and an all-out ban goes into effect 2023.LED's cost more than regular bulbs, he is too cheap for that. Besides, that 60W bulb is providing heat.
He is pretty tight with a buck, he inherited over 500K from his mother because he received the same as his brother who told me.
I think he does this as a game to entertain himself on how cheap he can actually get by with.
Congress and past presidential administrations have pushed for years to ban inefficient light bulbs.
/https%3A%2F%2Ftf-cmsv2-smithsonianmag-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Ffiler_public%2Fc3%2F9d%2Fc39d909d-80d4-4f1c-afdd-85f3d9e078d0%2Fgettyimages-687506592.jpg)
The United States Will Phase Out Incandescent Light Bulbs
Officials estimate this will cut carbon emissions by 222 million metric tons over 30 years and will save Americans $3 million per year on utility bills
www.smithsonianmag.com
ArthurEld
Solar Wizard
I didn't read this whole thread but I like to pay for as much as possible in advance so I don't have to pay for it when I am retired.
Besides that, my DIY solar projects are a hobby as far as I am concerned. And to have a hobby that partially pays for itself is kind of cool.
My solar stuff might pay for itself but I honestly don't care if it does.
Besides that, my DIY solar projects are a hobby as far as I am concerned. And to have a hobby that partially pays for itself is kind of cool.
My solar stuff might pay for itself but I honestly don't care if it does.
Hedges
I See Electromagnetic Fields!
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2020
- Messages
- 20,948
LEDs cost less....especially in light (no pun intended) that you can no longer get them in the US. Incandescent phase out started years ago, and an all-out ban goes into effect 2023.
Congress and past presidential administrations have pushed for years to ban inefficient light bulbs.
The United States Will Phase Out Incandescent Light Bulbs
Officials estimate this will cut carbon emissions by 222 million metric tons over 30 years and will save Americans $3 million per year on utility bills
Because we need to be protected from ourselves, can't make the correct decision given a variety of requirements.
"... and will save Americans $3 million per year on utility bills"
And the government is so good at weighing investment vs. return.
California High-Speed Rail - Wikipedia
The 10 U.S. metro rail systems that lose the most money per passenger
All metro rail systems across the U.S.—which include heavy rail, such as subways and elevated trains, and light rail, which operates at street level—reported operating at a loss in 2013. These are the 10 that lose the most money per passenger.
www.brookings.edu
I'm curious how exercising my free choice to buy LEDs could have triggered your political rant having nothing at all about my post?
I kind of like paying only $1.50 for an LED light that taxes my own (my choice....not government imposed) DIY power grid 1/4 of what incandescent use.
60-Watt Equivalent A19 Non-Dimmable LED Light Bulb Daylight 5000 (8-Pack) B7A19A60WUL38 - The Home Depot
Upgrade your existing incandescent, halogen and CFL bulbs to energy efficient LED light bulbs today and start saving dollars and cents on your power bill. The more you replace, the more you'll save. These
www.homedepot.com
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Spunky
Solar Enthusiast
I like the choice too. But it won't be a choice soon (2023], then how long before "the war on carbon" starts.
All along, the overloading of the grid is grow-ops (cannabis) in Michigan. HID grow lights and A/C to cool them down plus ventilation.
Then charge peek time usage and preach LEDs to us, because the grid can't meet demand. I'd bet like my own household, residential usage is down until EVs and electric heat has to be used.
KITROBASKIN
Solar Enthusiast
Distributed power generation is likely to really help us in the future as well. Seems impossible to really figure out when solar has absolutely passed the point where a person can say it has paid for itself: cost of monthly power bills (do people include that in their payback calculations?), spoiled frozen food, grid caused damage to home products possibly (lightning, dirty waveform), etc?
