Trouble Charging LiTime TM Batteries

[sunshine_eggo]

I bought three new Li Time 230Ah Plus with LTCP and am having exactly the same experience as you describe. All of them arrive with a voltage around 13.11v. I charge with a Victron IP22 30A charger, and when it completes the cycle, the battery reads 12.89v or 12.96v ----this has been the case with all three of these batteries. I connected each to an inverter and run a space heater for a few minutes, and the voltages of each battery, after resting, does tick up to 13.33v or close to it. The outstanding question remains, however, if any of the batteries attained a full charge?
Somehow I am sure the BMS they are using is the culprit here. Is it a problem or a feature? Not sure. Will need to try a capacity test discharge, but am not really happy that I am going through all of this run-around with these batteries. I have several other smaller (100Ah) Li Time and Ampere Time batteries that I have been quite happy with, and without issues like this. The 200A BMS in these units must be programed differently.

Will does recommend this specific model---the Li Time 230Ah with LTCP, on his website---but I have yet to see a video from him specifically talk about this battery, let alone test it and tare it down. Would really be interested if he encounters the same initial experience.

Did you observe it hit ~14.4V while passing current? If so, then they hit full or "dang near full."

Have you tried charing to 13.8V with a 2 hour fixed absorption period?

 

[constantspeed]

Did you observe it hit ~14.4V while passing current? If so, then they hit full or "dang near full."

Have you tried charing to 13.8V with a 2 hour fixed absorption period?

These batteries seem to do better with their respective BMS, if the charger max voltage is set below 14.6v. I have been experimenting with the Victron Ip22 30A charger, and the batteries seem happiest if the max charge voltage is 14.4v (manual says 14.4v +/- .2v). When left to do it's thing, it completes the task, but the battery ends up at 12.92v, until a load is again placed on the battery, after which, it recovers to 13.21v, but I would like to see it recover to 13.3 or more as a resting voltage. Next step is to setup a capacity test, to see if full capacity is there.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

These batteries seem to do better with their respective BMS, if the charger max voltage is set below 14.6v.

ALL batteries do.

I have been experimenting with the Victron Ip22 30A charger, and the batteries seem happiest if the max charge voltage is 14.4v (manual says 14.4v +/- .2v). When left to do it's thing, it completes the task,

Have you watched it at completion? I think this is the key. If you SEE it hit absorption AND flow current, it's full. If not, you're likely seeing premature charge termination due to BMS HVD.

but the battery ends up at 12.92v,

I'm convinced it's a post-charge protection event and/or a standby voltage if the battery is dormant for X seconds/minutes/hours.

until a load is again placed on the battery, after which, it recovers to 13.21v, but I would like to see it recover to 13.3 or more as a resting voltage. Next step is to setup a capacity test, to see if full capacity is there.

Agreed. 13.3V would be more reassuring. 13.4V moreso.

Have you tried charing to 13.8V with a 2 hour fixed absorption period?

 

[VeritasCupitor]

If I were to Disconnect the charger at the end of the Absorption charge period when it at 14.6V, would the resting charge stay higher? I'm not sure if the charger app is showing the battery voltage or the charger voltage.

During the Bulk charge, while charging was set for 14.4V the app showed a voltage of 13.54V. I assumed this was the battery voltage:

 

[VeritasCupitor]

I have several other smaller (100Ah) Li Time and Ampere Time batteries that I have been quite happy with, and without issues like this.

What do the (100Ah) Li Time batteries charge to for their resting voltage?

 

[sunshine_eggo]

If I were to Disconnect the charger at the end of the Absorption charge period when it at 14.6V, would the resting charge stay higher?

Unknown. You'd have to see for yourself. If it high high voltage protection as evidenced by jumping to 14.6V with an immediate drop to 0A (no taper), then I would expect it to read ~12.9V immediately after charging.

I'm not sure if the charger app is showing the battery voltage or the charger voltage.
View attachment 178775

Charger voltage. With no current flowing, it's reporting its set absorption voltage.

During the Bulk charge, while charging was set for 14.4V the app showed a voltage of 13.54V. I assumed this was the battery voltage:
View attachment 178776

It's whatever voltage it was seeing in response to the 30A current. Battery voltage at the battery terminals would be a little lower than 13.54V.

 

[constantspeed]

I'm convinced it's a post-charge protection event and/or a standby voltage if the battery is dormant for X seconds/minutes/hours.

Agreed. I think it is a post-charge event.

Have you watched it at completion? I think this is the key. If you SEE it hit absorption AND flow current, it's full. If not, you're likely seeing premature charge termination due to BMS HVD.

The History tab in the Victron app will show the charge progress, and if it was "Completed" or stopped by other means. And yes, this followed through to completion for full cycle.

Have you tried charing to 13.8V with a 2 hour fixed absorption period?

I have not. That might be a next step to investigate. First will try a capacity test.

 

[constantspeed]

What do the (100Ah) Li Time batteries charge to for their resting voltage?

I have the Li Time 100Ah Mini, and it has been sitting waiting for a project for a number of weeks now after fully charging, and is resting at 13.37v. The other Ampere Time (previous name of company) 100Ah batteries are currently part of a 500Ah battery bank in our RV trailer. I cannot tell you exactly what they are resting at right now, but typically are above 13.3v for the entire bank.

 

[jspann]

I would try a different charger. There's nothing special about those batteries, very basic BMS. Sounds like the charger is being silly

The mini has a "new improved" bms devloped by litime. Has anyone done a deep dive analysis of this bms? I had to set charge down to 14.0v or absorption went eratic both voltage and current with usual setting.
The mini has a resting 100% voltage of 13.33. This is lower than I expected yet litime recomended charge settings are still the same as prismatic.
Under load my mini was pulling 160A without cutting off. Bms should have cut out.

 

[Robar]

Just found this thread recently since I've had the same issue with my new Litime 12V 230Ah Plus battery. So far I've only tried charging it with their 20A charger and seen the same over-voltage protection kick in (though I wasn't monitoring the voltage closely, so I don't know what it got to). Loading for a few minutes brought the resting voltage back to about 13.3V. I contacted Litime support to see if I could get more information on their BMS, specifcally around the cell balancing function, and also to get their recommended settings for charging (sent a list of relevant settings for Victron MPPT and AC charger that I'm planning to use), and they wrote back with the following that I wanted to pass along to anyone else with one of these:

This is our new battery protection function, [Full Charge Protection Function].
This function provides more comprehensive protection for the battery and better performance of the battery system in two ways.

① Reduces voltage oscillations in the battery or system, maintains system performance and prevents abnormal system shutdown.
In situations where the battery needs to be connected to the charger for a long period of time, repeatedly turning on the battery after it has been fully charged can cause voltage oscillations in the battery or system (the battery voltage repeatedly cycles from resting down to charging up), which can affect system performance and even cause the system to shut down abnormally.

② Extend the life of the battery.
When a LiFePO4 battery is kept on high voltage charge for a long period (14.6V full charge voltage), its life span decreases relatively faster.
This function allows the battery to turn on the charge protection after a full charge, and then turn on the charge again after a certain discharge or resting voltage below a certain value, which can effectively circumvent the problems that may arise when the battery needs to be connected to the charger for a long time to charge without discharging.

After this battery is protected from overcharging,
the tested battery voltage (not the real voltage) will be lower than the real voltage.
To calculate the SOC (%), add 0.5V to 0.7V to the tested battery voltage.

We recommend that you take a small load (50W or above)and discharge it for 3-5 minute,
then leave it for 30 minutes before testing the voltage,
at which point the voltage should return to normal fully charged voltage(13.33V and above)


Here is some info about the BMS of the 12V 230Ah Plus battery for you：
Balance voltage for single cell：3.525±0.025V
Balance current for single cell：35±10mA
The balance module is working, it is recommended to charge with a small current, and the balancing time will be longer and more conducive to balancing.

Here are the recommended setting parameters for you：
Absorption Voltage：14.4V~14.6V
Float Voltage: 13.8V
Re-Bulk Voltage Offset: 13.0V
Tail Current：4.6A
Storage Voltage：50% SOC (see attached SOC form)
Bulk Time Limit： default
Re-bulk Current：default
Absorption Duration (Adaptive/Fixed)： Adaptive
Maximum Absorption Time (for Adaptive)/Absorption Time (for Fixed)：2h0m
Repeated Absorption：default
Others are default.

This pretty much confirms what others have been speculating, and does seem to offer a way to let the BMS balance the cells, which is good. It also seems that this is a new feature that has been added recently, so that's why we haven't been seeing this with previous batteries.

Anyway, I'm still looking into all of this and trying to make sense of the various threads and recommendations for LiFePO4 charging and also BMS cell balancing, so I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on the Litime recommendations. So if I want to try to balance the cells, can I do so with a regular bench-top power supply set at 14.1V (3.525 * 4), and just use the current limiting to set it at 35mA?

Thanks for all the info so far, and I hope these additional recommendations might be helpful to others.

 

[Tolly Roger]

Thank you for posting this.
I am Experiencing this issue with my new to me LiTime 230Ah’s and using their 10 amp charger. After leaving it on the charger overnight I came back to the charger flashing red and green. The voltage was 12.79. I thought I had a bad battery.
You would think they would include this information with new batteries or at least email an updated user manual to let you know.
For me at least this is not a good start for my experience

01112024 UPDATE:
Turns out my issue was with the LiTime charger. Not sure why but it was tripping the BMS and disconnecting. I am returning it for a refund.
I purchased a Victron IP22 and slightly modified the charging parameters and I believe I have successfully charged all 3 Batteries.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Experiencing this issue with my new to me LiTime 230Ah’s and using their 10 amp charger
You would think they would include this information with new batteries or at least email an updated user manual to let you know.
For me at least this is not a good start for my experience

I'm sure it's frustrating, but there's no incentive for the manufacturers to improve, and there are technical barriers to success. As pricing gets more aggressive, they can't afford to source perfectly matched cells and stay competitive. Furthermore, the chances the batteries will actually stay balanced in the 90+ days between manufacture and delivery, and considering they have to be discharged to less than 30% SoC before shipping to comply with hazmat requirements, is nearly zero.

The reality is that most people won't notice the issue, and it will eventually go away with normal charging/cycling.

Putting the battery on the charger for at least a day - maybe a week, should bring the battery to an acceptable state of balance.

 

[jbnalley]

I am new in the battery space and have been experimenting with different solar generators and battery builds. My battery builds seem to be more consistent than the ones I have purchased, but for some reason I think I prefer just buying off the shelf.

Generally, I have the same issue with the same 230 Ah battery. I have run a small load on it to get it to the 13.3 resting rate as instructed by LiTime and I have also let it sit at 12.9 over night. Both after a complete charge cycle with my Victron charger IP22 12|30. I have now run 3 capacity tests and get nearly the same result each time 225.61 to 225.86. After the last test I used the Li Time Monitor and ended up with the resting voltage again at 12.9 and 227 Ah. Looking at my Victron charger it shows a stop at 227.1 Ah. It seems minor but I really expected 230 (as advertised). I guess with the other LiTime batteries I have used, I was a bit spoiled that everthing worked and charged as expected and the batteries also almost always had a slightly larger capacity than advertised.

After all the back and forth with Li-Time and reading this thread, I just suspect there is something up with the 230 Ah battery and/or BMS. That being said, It was cheaper than the 200ah battery and slightly smaller in size (which is why I went with it to begin with vs the 200 Ah battery). So overall I really can't complain one battery with slightly less than advertised capacity in general use I believe its going to work fine and if not then I'll pull it and send it back.

I would like to see Will do a tear down on the 230 Ah from LiTime and see if he gets the same results most of us here on this thread are experiancing. Honestly, I would just like to see the inside and how its put together compared to other Li-Time batteries he has evaluated in the past.

 

[Inkog]

I picked up 2 of these Low Temp 230AH Plus batteries about a month ago. I too had issues charging them initially. One wouldn't even get to 13.8v before the BMS shut it down. I figured they were horribly imbalanced so I went on the search for information on the BMS balancing settings:

Balance voltage for single cell：3.525±0.025V Balance current for single cell：35±10mA .

This basically means that the BMS uses a simple passive balancing method that sinks (bleeds off) ~35mA of current if the cell goes over 3.525V. If a single cell hits ~3.7V the BMS will shut down and you'll see the 12.9V at the terminals. You either need to charge these things slooowly at first or just keep up a charge/rest cycle until the offending cell(s) bleeds off enough current to let the others catch up.

I'd suggest lowering the absorption voltage to 13.8V to give the BMS time to sink cells. Once you got it fully charging at the set voltage without the BMS tripping, you can slowly raise the voltage up. I don't suggest long-term charging prismatic cells over 14V (3.5v/cell) but checking the balance up to 14.4V on occasion won't hurt anything.

I haven't opened mine up, but based on the shape I'm pretty sure there are 8 ~115AH prismatic cells in a 4S2P configuration. That means charging the entire pack at 2-3amps should be slow enough to let the cells sink enough current to not trip the BMS while the stragglers catch up.

I've not had any problems from mine since I managed to get them fully charged and put into service in 2P. I did swap out my main battery disconnect with a 4 position switch (off, 1, 2, 1+2) so I can charge them individually easily if needed. Time will tell how long they will remain in balance...

Cheers,

 

[badaxed]

I have three LiTime TM batteries (https://www.litime.com/products/litime-12v-100ah-tm-deep-cycle-lifepo4-battery-for-trolling-motors) that I bought based on Will's teardown video.

I have a Minn Kota 440PCL 10A charger (https://minnkota.johnsonoutdoors.com/us/shop/battery-chargers/on-board-precision-chargers?v=102071). This charger has a lithium setting, and I do have the charger properly set to "lithium."

Finally, I have Victron Smart Battery Sense Bluetooth monitors on each battery (https://www.victronenergy.com/accessories/smart-battery-sense).

I am currently using two of the batteries in series for a 24v trolling motor. I fully charged them to balance within .02v prior to connecting them. The third one will be used when I upgrade to a 36v trolling motor in the coming months. The charger is connected to each battery (independent 12v leads).

The batteries have run my trolling motor fine so far (two trips), but charging seems to be a mess. Two of the batteries seems to be periodically locking up at approximately 12.9 volts. This is happening to one of the batteries in the series and to the battery that is standing alone (which was previously connected in series - I swapped them out). When this happens, the charger seems to turn on and off so that the voltage (per Victron monitor) is flicking back and forth between 14.3 to 12.9. The battery stays at 12.9v (does not increase) regardless of how long I let it do this (I've tried up to two days) and sits as 12.9 when I unplug the charger.

I contacted LiTime, and they said I should discharge the problem battery for one minute, then charge it again. That didn't work, but eventually I got it to work by connecting a device, letting it run for considerably longer than one minute, and then connecting the charger. This seemed to get the battery to accept a charge. But when I disconnected the charger, the battery fairly quickly (30 minutes give or take) stepped down 12.9v as through something was sucking the power from it. The only devices connected to the battery is the bluetooth monitor and the charger. I've done this with both "problem batteries." I've yet to experience this with the third battery, which has been in series the entire time).

The only thing the two "problem batteries" seem to have in common is that I've had each of them connected in series with the positive to the load and the negative coming from the third battery that has not yet had a problem. LiTime says these batteries can be run in series up to 48v. I did balance them before connecting in series. And the charger is built for lithium. I am mostly clueless, but guessing the BMS isn't compatible with my setup. This would be very disappointing given the fact that these are marketed as trolling motor batteries and I have one of the most common chargers and setups for trolling motors...

I'm frustrated. I have an Ionic brand battery for my starting/house battery and it's been flawless in that application with the charger. I've asked LiTime twice now to send me a return authorization for the batteries. They keep coming back with advice and have yet to send the return authorization. Their latest advice was that I should buy their charger and that they'll take it back if it doesn't work. This system is in the hull of my boat with difficult access. The MK440PCL charger is installed in the hull of the boat and I don't want to remove it. And I can't disconnect the series for charging due to access restrictions).

I was hoping to save some $ by going with these and at this point I wish I had just paid for Ionic across the board. I took the risk, but LiTime should at least honor their 30 day return policy.

Any thoughts or advice on this?

Last April I purchased three LiTime 100 amp deep cycle lipo 4 trolling motor batteries as well as a noco lithium charger from Amazon. I based my purchase on will prowse’s you tube video reviews. One of the batteries froze at 72 % and would not charge. Li Time customer service told me I had to ‘wake it up” by drawing 60 watts for five minutes. This seemed to work. Not long afterwords another LiTime battery went dead @10.25 volts and would not charge at all. I contacted Li Time and after several e-mails gave them my receipt, charger info, order # and picture of battery and this is their response;


“Hi Randy,
Thanks for your info. It helps!
I will help you return this unchargeable battery, we will cover the shipping cost.”


Next I received this from Li Time;


“We notice that your order was placed on 7 April 2023, which is one year ago, and according to our refund policy, for orders one year ago, the refund percentage is 60%.Is it acceptable for you?


Once the battery is delivered to the warehouse, we will arrange the refund for you, the tax will be refunded by Amazon.


For the replacement, you just need to pay $28 to get a new replacement battery.”


After complaining about having to pay shipping costs to Li Time I received this;


“Hello Randy,
We've received your returned product and we're ready to arrange a refund for you,before that,we have received your request about the return shipping cost.


As you're our valued customer, after a special application, we would like to help you cover the shipping cost of $28 for the replacement battery, but could you pls help write a 5-star review on our website before the refundation? Is is acceptable and convenient for you?


If it is possible, pls mention my name Mavis in the review. Thanks in advance for your help!!


Here are the steps to leave a 5-star review on our website.”


I noticed Li Time asked for a 5 star review BEFORE THEY WOULD SEND ME A REPLACEMENT UNDER THEIR WARRANTY.

I asked again do I need to write a 5 star review before I get warranty service?


Li Times answer was “yes in order to not get charged for shipping I needed to write a 5 star review.”


This in ‘my opinion’ amounts to blackmail for warranty service.


In my opinion this is an act ( to obtain false higher ratings) of a very disreputable company. I would advise avoiding doing business with this company like the plague, as their warranty policy is truly not 5 years , but only 30 days without penalty ( cost) to the buyer.


From Li Time;


“If the 30-day return period has passed, if the item is faulty or malfunctioning, the customer needs to pay for the return shipping cost, since you are our valuable customer, we have already covered the return shipping cost for you, normally, the replacement shipping cost will need to be covered by the customer, to make up for a little bit of the loss, if you are willing to leave a 5-star positive review on our official website, we will cover the replacement shipping cost for you again, and we will send you a brand new replacement for free!
The total shipping cost is $56( for the return and replacement”


So my replacement battery was held hostage until I wrote a 5 star review…..this I did begrudgingly. (This is an amended review of the 5 star rating I was blackmailed into writing).


Beware of this horrible company, their products, their poor warranty , and potential blackmail to obtain warranty service. Beware that those 5 star reviews you read about ,may be blackmailed by Li Time like mine was , just to get your “kidnapped” replacement battery released from Li Time .

 

[Alkaline]

What you are seeing it what I have seen multiple times with Chins, Ampere Time, Wieze and the numerous clones from amazon. About the only ones I have not seen are Redodo.

Usually by year 2 or 3 is when you start seeing this charging mess because the grade B cells are now so out of balance the BMS will struggle to try to balance them.

So my fix for them is to open the lid up, and install the flying capacitor style active balancer. If you can do some soldering you can get a slider switch and mount it to the outside of the case, then turn it on/off as needed.

Using this method I've helped over 10 people in the Toledo Bend Fishing Areas and with this for the most part we were able to get back to 95% of rated capacity.

That being said...

If I were you, I would black mail them! Give them a scathing review on amazon post pictures and tell them how they asked for a 5 star review. They will immediately get upset and start crying; when this happens demand they give you 2 free batteries and and prepaid lables to send the defective ones back, only when you get the replacements will you take the review down. Yes you will be the villan in this case, but I feel no mercy for these sellers and this is the only language they understand!

 

[Alkaline]

About 10 years ago, there was this rc pilot flying a very expensive 25,000.00 usd + RC jet had a nasty crash: https://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-jets-120/11474504-fly-eagle-jet-f-14-crash-video.html this was due to structural failure, the model was poorly built by a Chinese company and he just so happened to have someone filming when this happened so he had iron clad proof of the failure.

here is a video of it: (he took down his original video, probably because the vendor sales tanked and they gave him what he wanted) so this was a copy of his originally posted video:

Basically the model crashed, and the rc pilot wanted a full replacement airframe and all the electronics & engines, fly eagle jet (makers of the model) refused instead wanted to give me a small discount on a new airframe only no engines or electronics. He waited and warned them and eventually posted the video on line. The company fly eagle jet started crying, calling him racist, saying they will have the fbi arrest him so on and so forth. In the end they were forced to give in the the RC pilots demands and he made his video private, however, there sales dropped to nothing and they went out of business. They still have a facebook page but no updates since 2019 https://www.facebook.com/p/FLY-EAGLE-JET-MODEL-100066651579135/

I was shocked he got anything, as me and so many others said Yeah it will be a cold day in heck before you get anything back from the Chinese..WRONG.

So moral of the story is, when dealing with Chinese vendors you can show no mercy, they do not respect you unless you make it clear you will hurt their future revenue & sales.

As for the reviews yes it is entirely fake:

Here is my fav scene from the HBO show silicon valley which explains this perfectly:

Finally will say: you get what you pay for....

 

[HarryN]

Or you can just buy a decent battery in the first place.