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Nickel Iron Batteries

mrevesz

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Oct 13, 2019
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Hello,

Has anyone here looked into Nickel Iron batteries?
They are heavy batteries only suited for stationary applications, but I am very intrigued by them. I am researching how they can be made in DIY fashion. I've done a bit of research and it looks like it may be feasible to manufacture your own using materials from pottery store, some cheap steel, some plastic rain barrels, and lye from a hardware store. If made correctly they can last for thousands of cycles.

The main appeal of this is batteries are expensive. Solar panels get cheaper every year. I am not in a position that I can invest heavily in solar right now, but if I can get a good idea of how to build these batteries I may be able to do so in the next few years. If it is truly feasible it could allow someone with a large space to hold a bank with many kWh and putting in a lot of labour but minimal financial expense. Very interesting. I also like DIY stuff and it would be cool to know how to produce your own battery.

Yea just curious if anyone else has been intrigued by these batteries.
 
A quick search yielded this info:
Seems like a lot of cons listed in their description.
Seems that if one was willing to build a battery one might make a case for going FLA and rebuilding after a thousand or so cycles. I'm old enough to remember tar top batteries which were made to be fairly easily rebuilt. However, this may be a lost technology. I even remember a visit to a phone company while in grade school and being impressed by the rack upon rack of clear glass lead acid batteries that powered the phone system (or perhaps were backup for the system). They were all designed to be rebuilt as required.
 
I think I for some applications most if not all these disadvantages can be null
I'll post the entire article and leave a comment as to what circumstance negates the con


Disadvantages of Nickel Iron Batteries
22 November 2017
Category: Renewable Energy
battery charge icons

Nickel-Iron (Ni-Fe) batteries, also known as Nickel-Alkaline or Edison batteries are rechargeable batteries with a long life expectancy, high Depth of Discharge (DoD) and a reputation for durability. The battery can withstand overcharge, overdischarge and short-circuiting and yet last 20 years or more.
The disadvantages however outweigh the advantages.
Cost:
The initial cost is at least 30% over a high-end Lead Acid battery of comparable size (considering usable energy) and also still a lot dearer than Lithium batteries. If you can build your own using common materials, it may be possible that they are far cheaper. I will have to get price quotes from pottery store and metal suppliers, but I expect it could be a fraction of the cost. For people on a set budget and strong DIY means, this could make solar an option when otherwise it may not be. Needs more investigation.
Efficiency:
Nickel-Iron batteries have lower energy density and lower specific power compared to lead-acid batteries (or in layman's terms are less efficient). The cells take a charge slowly, and give it up slowly (cannot supply sudden large power spikes). This means one would need more batteries and more solar panels to achieve the output of a 'standard' lead-acid based power system. In addition, Ni-Fe batteries have a significant self-discharge rate of 1% per day. I'm assuming that home built battery will be substantially cheaper, and as a result you may be able to build a very large one, so capacity can increase a lot if you are able to build on a large scale with cheap materials. The fact that they have low energy density is irrelevant in stationary application where you have enough space to accomodate the cells. Low specific power is also not a concern if you are building a large capacity bank. The overall power you can draw increases as you increase the capacity, so you make up for the specific power being lower. In this type of application we aren't really concerned about weight.
Ventilation:
They produce a lot of hydrogen, daily gassing is required to get the expected performance. Hydrogen gas is explosive, therefore good ventilation is imperative. The type of application of have in mind is stationary, and would have the cells housed in a shed or a very simple roofed structure. Simply ensure there is plenty of ventilation for the structure. There is no need to prevent cold temperatues.
Compatibility:
The characteristics of Ni-Fe batteries are not supported by most solar equipment. The voltage window is so wide that standard inverters are likely to shut themselves down well before the battery is fully discharged. Hence claims like "100% usable capacity" are exaggerated which will further add to cost, size and maintenance. This is the biggest real concern. We may be able to deplete the battery to 0v but this is no use if we require AC power from an inverter that cuts off at 10V. I am interested to finding out what percentage of the capacity is calculated from within the 10v to 14v range or essentially what fraction of the capacity is able to be converted to AC power by a standard DC to AC power inverter. Something like a graph of Capacity vs DOD would be helpful.
Size and weight:
The cell voltage is 1.2V, so you need 40 cells to form a 48V battery bank. Even smaller battery banks easily weigh a ton. This further adds to the cost for shipping, storage (battery box/room dimensions), installation and maintenance. It would not be feasible to ship these cells filled with electrolyte, but in a DIY manner the materials relatively light to ship. The bulk of the weight coming from steel and water added in electrolyte
Maintenance:
Most batteries sold these days are classified "maintenance-free". Wet cell Lead Acid batteries are still available and possibly even better than dry cell technology but RPC does not recommend them as time has shown that at some point maintenance will be neglected. While Ni-Fe batteries may withstand such treatments without damage, their performance will most certainly drop. Ni-Fe batteries should be checked and topped up weekly. Inspecting and filling 40 cells is time consuming and tedious. Furthermore, every so often the electrolyte solution has to be completely replaced - a messy and labour intensive exercise. If build well these batteries are said to need electroyte replacement every 10 years. That's fine. Making a project to deconstruct, clean, and refill the electrolyte every ten years is less of an expense to purchasing new batteries every 10 years(or more). The fact that they can be put back into service after 10 year maintenance is actually a plus. Also, while they do require a lot of topping up, this can be made simpler by allowing a larger headspace above the cells. If you have plates 10 inches tall, and have electrolyte filled to 20 inches, you have a 10 inch of headroom before you really need to top up electrolyte, so you could easily design so that topping up is done only every few months. This is common for lead acid anyways and is as simple as pouring in some distilled water. No big deal.
Conclusion
While not as bad as Ni-Cd batteries, RPC strongly advises against Nickel Iron batteries for home solar systems. The initial cost is unlikely to pay off unless maintenance is conducted meticulously - for decades. If you need high quality deep cycle batteries, take a look at these Lead Acid or Lithium batteries.

To be clear I am not advocating anyone use this cell technology. I am just suggesting that there may be potential here for people in specific circumstances. A tried and tested method for constructing DIY nickel iron batteries that is feasible still needs to be developed. I'm suggesting that if someone with a strong interest in pioneering this were to develop a good method, that it may be a valuable thing for people in the future.
 
A quick search yielded this info:
Seems like a lot of cons listed in their description.
Seems that if one was willing to build a battery one might make a case for going FLA and rebuilding after a thousand or so cycles. I'm old enough to remember tar top batteries which were made to be fairly easily rebuilt. However, this may be a lost technology. I even remember a visit to a phone company while in grade school and being impressed by the rack upon rack of clear glass lead acid batteries that powered the phone system (or perhaps were backup for the system). They were all designed to be rebuilt as required.

Those batteries actually powered the system at -48VDC. That's why the phone system used to work even when the power was out. In the 90's I worked in an AT&T test lab that was actually the 3rd largest phone network in the world - and never carried a "real" call. Our plant typically was providing around 5200-5500 Amps at -48VDC!
 
I have not been able to find any information on the charge-discharge efficiency of the iron edison battery. I have a suspicion they maybe worse than a lead acid battery?
 
The glass jar Edison & Exide batteries show up around here once in a while, and I buy them up.
They are stupid simple to rebuild, and they sit as examples of what we used to do for 'Off Grid'.

You *Could* go with the later model Nickel/Iron battery, plastic case and all, rail roads, underground mines, phone systems still use them as examples, they are still practical and long lived, but not being used in the consumer market, they are expensive.

Everyone *WANTS* the best charge density in the smallest package,
And they don't want to do maintenance, which explains the rush to LiFe batteries.
When you mention large industrial batteries (fork truck, etc) you hear crickets in the room,
These come with huge amp/hour ratings, and when you get into off grid scale, they make a lot of sense, give a lot of service for the dollars spent, but you MUST learning how to use the correct tools and maintain the battery.

While not 'Powerful' by today's charge density standards, Watts are Watts, and how ever you can store Watts is your business.
The fact that 120 year old batteries can be cleaned up or rebuilt and put right back into service should say something about longevity/durability...
I wouldn't expect you to believe it will compete with modern batters head to head,
But you can also look at it as an education/adventure, seeing how it works.
Education is never a bad thing!
 
Gee wiz, let's go back to using Earth Batteries which powered the telegraphs and more in days long gone. Considering the new metal alloys developments and types of electrodes, no one has delved into Earth Battery research side in the past few decades... Safe to say, we have moved beyond only having Iron & Copper rods for electrodes...
 
Gee wiz, let's go back to using Earth Batteries which powered the telegraphs and more in days long gone. Considering the new metal alloys developments and types of electrodes, no one has delved into Earth Battery research side in the past few decades... Safe to say, we have moved beyond only having Iron & Copper rods for electrodes...

I'm old fashioned...
I still teach basics, when someone is actually interested, I'll stick a lemon with metal and make a battery,
I'll wrap a magnetic compass in wire and use the lemon to move the needle showing the electro-magnetic link.
I'll wave a coil of wire through a magnetic field and make the compass needle jump to show the electro-magnetic link works both directions...

Litmus paper to show the difference between acidic batteries and alkyne batteries from lemons and potatoes, etc.
How different metals work differently for anode & cathode, zinc, nickel, copper, iron, silver, ect.

When you learn to generate the electrical current from scratch, I *Believe* (could be wrong) you understand it better.
Once you learn to wind a winding then all things are possible,
From self rectifying DC current, to AC current, to transformers, etc.
But if you don't understand the basic electro-magnetic link, half the education is missing.
 
Has anyone here looked into Nickel Iron batteries?

Yes, see my thread....


I'm almost 12months in now, and the batteries have been working well.
 
Disadvantages of Nickel Iron Batteries

This article does seem highlight the disadvantages well, however there are advantages to this battery tech this article doesn't even mention. Such as cold climate performance which is off the charts compared with any other battery chemistry I've come across.

For stationary solar storage most of the disadvantages are moot, energy density is simply irreverent for this application.

However cost is a big negative making it hard for people to get in. However my cheep 12V system will be upgraded soon to 24V then 48V this allows me to get in and upgrade as I can afford it (not something some other batteries like). For me however cost of ownership over the life time of the cells is far more important than initial cost. Dependence on a battery manufacture to replace my cells every 15 or so years? I might as well stay tied to the grid. Once however these batteries are spent you have quite a lot of nickel that will remain quite valuable.

One major consideration also is the recyclability and non toxic materials being used here. You cant say that of any lithium or lead based battery.

These batteries are not for everyone, they do require maintenance, and are not as turn key as many others.

I fully expect these cells to outlast myself. Even if I have to replace the outer plastic shell, the plates should last indefinitely.

Also, modern types (the Chinese made ones) like I have cannot be brought down to 0V, the metalergy has changed and the plates will delaminate below 9.5V.

But overall that was a relatively fair write up, I have seen a lot worse trying to make out these batteries are the offspring of the devil himself!
 
I have not been able to find any information on the charge-discharge efficiency of the iron edison battery. I have a suspicion they maybe worse than a lead acid battery?

Generally around the same however there are some variables here.

I have 12kw of storage (1000ah 12V), and in the middle of winter i have around 6h of good sunlight. These batteries take around 15h to fully charge however in my 6h I'm able to pump in 8-9kw at a float of 16.2V.

However when I go to use that energy i will only get back out 5-6kw which you would say is terrible. 50% storage in 6h, thats good enough and I can size appropriately, most solar systems you want to store multile days worth of energy, so charging them over multiple days is totally fine.

So where does the additional 3kw go? well that goes into hydrogen.

I can bring my float down to somewhere around 15.5V and I still should be able to get around 6-7kw in and still maintain my 5-6 out, which is so much better you may say.

The sun is free!! I don't care that I'm loosing 3kw in that way. All it means is I need to top up my cells more often. I will bring my float down, but I'm not in any hurry to do that.

If you were charging off the grid then you will care about efficiency and all you need to do is adjust your float accordingly.
 
This article does seem highlight the disadvantages well, however there are advantages to this battery tech this article doesn't even mention. Such as cold climate performance which is off the charts compared with any other battery chemistry I've come across.

For stationary solar storage most of the disadvantages are moot, energy density is simply irreverent for this application.

However cost is a big negative making it hard for people to get in. However my cheep 12V system will be upgraded soon to 24V then 48V this allows me to get in and upgrade as I can afford it (not something some other batteries like). For me however cost of ownership over the life time of the cells is far more important than initial cost. Dependence on a battery manufacture to replace my cells every 15 or so years? I might as well stay tied to the grid. Once however these batteries are spent you have quite a lot of nickel that will remain quite valuable.

One major consideration also is the recyclability and non toxic materials being used here. You cant say that of any lithium or lead based battery.

These batteries are not for everyone, they do require maintenance, and are not as turn key as many others.

I fully expect these cells to outlast myself. Even if I have to replace the outer plastic shell, the plates should last indefinitely.

Also, modern types (the Chinese made ones) like I have cannot be brought down to 0V, the metalergy has changed and the plates will delaminate below 9.5V.

But overall that was a relatively fair write up, I have seen a lot worse trying to make out these batteries are the offspring of the devil himself!
I wonder what is the coulumbic efficiency of devils offspring is?
 
Hi,
have NiFe Batteries for 3.5 years now.
I wanted that type due to very long lasting ability, high temperature tolerance, low discharge without affecting life and regarded as one of the most environmentally friendly types of batteries out there.
Been living on off grid solar for 17 years and have had experience with other batteries.
Because there is very little real life experience out there - at least in regards to usage in solar applications - I have created a basic site with additional information and performance graph. (Data in graph is actually from right to left).

 
Great report, well done.

By only using 20% of the cell capacity you have mitigated a lot of the downsides of NiFe. A relatively expensive way of storing energy though.

My take on battery technology is it is unwise to invest in a “long term” solution. My current LiFePO4 battery is nearly 9 years old and still close to full capacity, i have just ordered an additional LiFePO4 that is 1/3 the price, and in another 10 years or so when i will need another battery i fully expect it will be a type that currently doesn’t exist..
 
By only using 20%

I have been driving mine to 0% SOC all winter now. its only the last few days as we come out of the worst of winter than II have been able to get multiple days of charge in and not use near 100%

You don't need to be all nice like with these batteries, you have to be a little rough with them they like it that way. The problem with only ever using 20% is memory just like Ni-CAD batteries, you will diminish your capacity and one day they will let you down. Cycling them their full voltage range 9.5V to 17V will snap them out of that fairly quickly however. Just be careful not to go below 9.5V. You can see my data in my thread posted above.
 
I have 12kw of storage (1000ah 12V), and in the middle of winter i have around 6h of good sunlight. These batteries take around 15h to fully charge however in my 6h I'm able to pump in 8-9kw at a float of 16.2V.

However when I go to use that energy i will only get back out 5-6kw which you would say is terrible. 50% storage in 6h, thats good enough and I can size appropriately, most solar systems you want to store multile days worth of energy, so charging them over multiple days is totally fine.

So where does the additional 3kw go? well that goes into hydrogen.

I can bring my float down to somewhere around 15.5V and I still should be able to get around 6-7kw in and still maintain my 5-6 out, which is so much better you may say.

The sun is free!! I don't care that I'm loosing 3kw in that way. All it means is I need to top up my cells more often. I will bring my float down, but I'm not in any hurry to do that.

That's one of the reasons I didn't consider NiFe batteries. You have 6 hours of good sunlight in winter, I have maybe 2 where the sun actually comes over the horizon :) Every Watt matters here since I don't have enough sunlight to even make it through worst winter even with my 10kW array.
 
I've been looking at replacements for my FLA's and considered Ni-Fe batteries, but negated them due to cost.
I wanted around 10 - 15 KWh capacity. For a 48 volt bank, this would comprise 40 cells each 300 Ah giving 14 KWh at 100% DOD.
Total cost $12,675; and that's without taxes or shipping costs.
This works out at around $1,000 a KWh !
 
Hi,

I've been looking at replacements for my FLA's and considered Ni-Fe batteries, but negated them due to cost.
I wanted around 10 - 15 KWh capacity. For a 48 volt bank, this would comprise 40 cells each 300 Ah giving 14 KWh at 100% DOD.
Total cost $12,675; and that's without taxes or shipping costs.
This works out at around $1,000 a KWh !

When I bought 40 x 200Ah in 2016, it cost me $8000 + $250 shipping. The price for the same capacity in LiFePO4 was about $8000, for Winston cells, but slightly less for shipping. I looked at the possible life of the two, and decided on NiFe.

Of course that hasn't worked out as I planned, and 7 of them have failed after 4 years, the others have lost some efficiency. I was getting 80%, now 50%, but that will be partly due to having less cells in service. They may all eventually fail. I haven't read of others having the same issue, so it appears to be rare.

I'm buying LiFePO4 this time. The 280Ah EVE cells seem to be a good buy. I'm getting 18 shortly.

In discussion with the NiFe seller about replacement/refund.

dRdoS7
 
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