Half price electric cars

Wow - Another thread generating 25 pages of comments in about a day. This board is pretty phenomenal. I didn't read everything, but it seems like another "EVs suck" vs "EVs rock" thread.

I've had a Tesla Model Y for a bit over a year. I went into it knowing that I didn't know everything, but I tried to research what I could. Some on-going costs are lower (no oil changes, transmission fluid changes, and all the Rube Goldberg mechanical components), and some are higher (tires go sooner and cost much more, and any body damage is probably more expensive than most other cars).

There are several things that I really like. First, electricity in our area is $0.11 per kWh, and based on the current average cost of gas in our area I get the equivalent of about 106 miles per gallon. Second, so far (one year) this car is used for driving around the Denver area, and no long trips. I can't tell you how nice it is to never stop to fill up (or recharge). I just pull into my garage and plug it in, knowing it is ready next time. And last but certainly not least, it is incredibly fun!

The federal incentives last year reduced the price to roughly the same as a nice small ICE SUV.

Anyway, I'm happy. I do think we will all be going EV at some point, although I think it will be a fairly long time.

wattmatters said:

Every power outlet in the country is a charge point.


These are not your typical home DIY battery cells, the battery cells used in EVs are designed for it. The vast majority of EV charging will be done at circa 0.1C or less in any case. For most people DC fast charging is an occasional thing and is not damaging.


BP, one of the largest fuel retailers in Australia, are installing EV charge stations throughout their network.

https://www.bp.com/en_au/australia/home/products-services/bppulse.html

Pretty much all the major highway service centre stops have them, whatever fuel retailer they are.


This is more misunderstanding of the role EVs will play on the grid.


No, it doesn't.

Australia is the largest lithium miner in the world, mined from spodumene (hard rock). Chile, Argentina and China harvest it from brine lakes. We also had, a long time ago now fortunately, a lot of asbestos mining, manufacture and use. Lithium and asbestos mining and use are as chalk and cheese as you can get. Lithium is highly recyclable. Asbestos on the other hand is causing us no end of long term grief.

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Oh my gosh you're right.

There are no downsides to EV's at all.

Thank you for tackling all my misinformation.

I didn't just get a Facebook ad from the local electric company trying to get customers to sign onto a program that let's the power company control when your EV gets charged.

They don't impact the grid at all. Amazon didn't have to cancel an ev charging project because the local electrical capacity wasn't enough either.

Checkthisout said:

So you have a short-range ev that needlessly spends energy carrying around a gas engine and all the requisite components that never get used.

Why didn't you just get an EV?

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He explained that he also uses it for longer trips to Vegas etc.

Zwy said:

No, not oil companies but PFAS.

You would be surprised how much has been hidden about PFAS.

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Micro plastics will get ya too.

I wonder how much fossil fuels were used to get Fisker where they are today.

Brucey said:

He explained that he also uses it for longer trips to Vegas etc.

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Huh?

So why not just get an EV?

wattmatters said:

Every power outlet in the country is a charge point.

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4 miles per hour? Yup

wattmatters said:

BP, one of the largest fuel retailers in Australia, are installing EV charge stations throughout their network.
https://www.bp.com/en_au/australia/home/products-services/bppulse.html

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That’s great. That’s Not the US.
Once again because it works for you doesn’t mean it works for everyone.

wattmatters said:

This is more misunderstanding of the role EVs will play on the grid.

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Oh so they don’t get charged via solar or Grid now.
Good to know..

Checkthisout said:

Huh?

So why not just get an EV?

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Presumably it's a distance that requires one or more charges and he doesn't want to spend that time waiting? One thing I sometimes see advised is use your EV for commuting and short trips and then rent a gas car for longer road trips. In his case he's using a hybrid to get the best of both worlds so to speak.

What if there is a huge conspiracy to have us all buy EVs and have them all plugged in all the time, just so the energy companies can use us to stop the rolling blackouts during extreme temperatures? Hey honey I’m leaving to go to work…hmmm…why is my car that’s been plugged in for 24 hours have 50 % charge? Oh well I’ll just charge it again..

MTM98290 said:

I do like small cars for some uses, but large cars are a necessity to many. Have you ever tried to put 4 people who are 6' tall in the same car? Even the largest cars are basically intended for 2 adults and 2 children.

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My car is not large but a 6' adult can comfortably sit in the back. Lack of a transmission hump adds a bit more leg room too.

If your use case really requires daily transport of four large humans, then sure get a larger car. But for most that's not the case, more likely an occasional drive across town.

Q-Dog said:

For the last time, There are NO small EV trucks on the market.

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Yeah, the options for EVs are yet to fully catch up with ICEVs. And the initial production of EV utes are are predictably following the same form factor as the big-ass utes since they are the biggest selling category of vehicle, closely followed by the SUV form factor (and Tesla Model Y is the world's biggest selling vehicle). So it's unsurprising that EV makers targeted the larger and more expensive end first. That will change.

Smaller options are coming, it's just a matter of time. Heck even this Aussie mob see the opportunity:

Might be smaller than what you are looking at but it just points to the future.

For much of what we do this would be perfect. I have to take our garbage to the local waste transfer station. Currently using our old Golf for that. Be good to pick up the small loads we would like to be able to for the garden. A$26k (~US$17k). Speed and long range is not needed, it's local town utility that matters.

But I suspect it'll get its lunch eaten in time by Chinese small truck options.

clayswen said:

Range gets them all the time.

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Has nobody, in the history of driving cars, ever run out of fuel? Range gets them all the time.

Checkthisout said:

Imagine these people thinking that a Tesla can sit in a garage or outside in Minnesota and charge when it's 8 degrees outside off a 20 amp 120V outlet.

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Tesla's battery management system would preheat the pack for safe charging. They have excellent thermal management technology.

Nobodybusiness said:

You really going to carry a Generator around with you?

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My EV is already a generator.

The vehicle to load function can be used to power things, and if needed in an emergency, help to get some charge into someone else's EV, enough to get them to a charge point.

Indeed we have a day long scheduled grid outage in a couple of week's time. Pole maintenance on our property. I will be using our EV to support the home's energy supply during this time.

Checkthisout said:

Oh my gosh you're right.

There are no downsides to EV's at all.

Thank you for tackling all my misinformation.

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Strawmen are a low grade logical fallacy.

EVs are not perfect. Neither are ICEVs. But there is so much FUD and false and misleading nonsense being written it's hard not to respond to those points.

wattmatters said:

Has nobody, in the history of driving cars, ever run out of fuel? Range gets them all the time.

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You are missing the point. Some person that runs out of gas doesn't have to pay a tow truck 100s of dollars to drive them to the nearest charger. However far that may be. If a person runs out of gas they can have somone bring them a gas can and be gone. Apples and oranges to an EV stranded on the side of a road.

If someone runs out of gas I can stop and give them a gallon or two from a Jerry can and send them on their way
It is an absolute and fundamental difference.
Pages back people posted Tesla’s on flatbeds. Seems to happen to the Uber drivers and the like more as they are more dependent on public charging. Which again causes issue during freezing weather.
Neither Norway, the EU as a whole, nor Australias infrastructure compare in any form to American. While the footprint of Australia is indeed similar, there are millions of acres of open land lacking cities. In the states most of those rural areas still contain tens of thousands of people that simply do not have the luxury of the interstate charging network, city public charging, or other.

This is what people that are considering an EV need to watch. This is real world traveling.

clayswen said:

You are missing the point. Some person that runs out of gas doesn't have to pay a tow truck 100s of dollars to drive them to the nearest charger. However far that may be. If a person runs out of gas they can have somone bring them a gas can and be gone. Apples and oranges to an EV stranded on the side of a road.

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There's some mobile faster charging solutions for such scenarios, availability prob varies depending on region:

Brucey said:

There's some mobile faster charging solutions for such scenarios, availability prob varies depending on region:

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/portable-charging-solutions-for-evs

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Yes I'm sure there are things like this that will come in handy, but they are few and far between. I'm not against EVs nor am I an advocate. Its just that they aren't even close to the real world realiabilty that people outside of major cities need. It will happen and I will be the first to puchase one when they reach that point.

This is my fear, and idk if it was this thread or another (I think it was in the EV tractor thread) but someone said that tech is being built with planned obsolescence which is why I’d prefer something like the conversion kits that avoid this issue.

Nobodybusiness said:

4 miles per hour? Yup

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My car charges while I do other things. Are you driving your car every moment your breathe?

Mine can magically fill up while I sleep (if needed), although mostly it charges during the day from solar PV. Except today and tomorrow because I get free power between noon and 2PM. That's 100 miles of range I can add for free. That's 2/3rds of a typical week's driving. Balance from solar.

But yeah, a power outlet is not a fast charger. Thanks for pointing that out. I'd never have known

Not every home/building has a petrol bowser but I suspect you knew that.

Nobodybusiness said:

Once again because it works for you doesn’t mean it works for everyone.

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Where did I ever say it would?

Nobodybusiness said:

Oh so they don’t get charged via solar or Grid now.
Good to know..

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EVs will play a part in helping the grid. Bi-directional charge stations will become more normal, have been on test here and in places in Europe. The national energy market operator has already modelled the role they will play on our grid in the years ahead. EVs are going to play a small but useful part in peak shaving and grid stability. Not everyone will participate, that's never expected, but a proportion will.

clayswen said:

You are missing the point.

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Clearly. Idiots in cars running out of energy 100 miles from a fuel station / charge point will happen no matter the technology.

If the next fuel stop really is 100 miles away then how long will it take to get the fuel delivered so you can be on your way in a jiffy?

G00SE said:

This is my fear, and idk if it was this thread or another (I think it was in the EV tractor thread) but someone said that tech is being built with planned obsolescence which is why I’d prefer something like the conversion kits that avoid this issue.

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Excellent point.
If you build it you control it, if someone else builds it it's out of your control.
If/when I convert an old truck firmware updates will not be an option.

G00SE said:

If someone runs out of gas I can stop and give them a gallon or two from a Jerry can and send them on their way
It is an absolute and fundamental difference.

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And as I have pointed out, I can stop and plug my car into theirs to give them some energy so they can make it to a power outlet somewhere.

Like this is being touted as a reason why EVs are not worth it? Seriously?

wattmatters said:

If the next fuel stop really is 100 miles away then how long will it take to get the fuel delivered so you can be on your way in a jiffy?

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You're still missing the point. We don't have gas stations 100 miles away. We have infrastructure for ICE vehicles (stations every few miles if not less), not for EVs (chargers long distances apart). That's why EV's have to be driven an out of the way route instead of from point A to point B. Apples and oranges!!

wattmatters said:

My car charges while I do other things. Are you driving your car every moment your breathe?

Mine can magically fill up while I sleep (if needed), although mostly it charges during the day from solar PV. Except today and tomorrow because I get free power between noon and 2PM. That's 100 miles of range I can add for free. That's 2/3rds of a typical week's driving. Balance from solar.

But yeah, a power outlet is not a fast charger. Thanks for pointing that out. I'd never have known

Not every home/building has a petrol bowser but I suspect you knew that.


Where did I ever say it would?


EVs will play a part in helping the grid. Bi-directional charge stations will become more normal, have been on test here and in places in Europe. The national energy market operator has already modelled the role they will play on our grid in the years ahead. EVs are going to play a small but useful part in peak shaving and grid stability. Not everyone will participate, that's never expected, but a proportion will.


Clearly. Idiots in cars running out of energy 100 miles from a fuel station / charge point will happen no matter the technology.

If the next fuel stop really is 100 miles away then how long will it take to get the fuel delivered so you can be on your way in a jiffy?

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wattmatters said:

:

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Remotely turning on the aircon to pre-cool the cabin is nice when it's been out in the hot sun.

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Sir, respectfully, according to your image you average 13km monthly?
I’m not sure how relevant that is to 90% of drivers.
I imagine that there’s possibility your image isn’t accurate for that field but I had to ask.