Off topic, EV vehicle opinions…

svetz said:

Lithium iron phosphate batteries don't even use cobalt and they don't catch fire. And yes, some EVs do use them (e.g., Tesla Model 3, Ford Mustang).

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Wwwwweeeeel, they catch fire, they do not suffer from thermal runaway. A subtle but important difference. Thermal runaway = bad.

ksmithaz1 said:

Wwwwweeeeel, they catch fire, they do not suffer from thermal runaway. A subtle but important difference. Thermal runaway = bad.

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The only problem is that LFP energy density is much worse than LiO so they are not applicable to EV application. They are also more sensitive to temperature drops.

And then there is Lithium sourcing that EV advocates continue to ignore - it is LITERALLY wreaking havoc on the planet (Amount of toxic pollution insane).

EV owners will always be emotional about their purchasing choice. All people are.
But we must educate people so that they truly understand what their choice entails.

This is why i always say - let EVs stand on their own, on a free market. No subsidies, no mandates, no forcing people (By deliberately crippling ICE cars via various ridiculous laws that promote EVs).
If with that EV manufacturers can survive, then more power to them. After all it is all about CHOICE. For those who want an EV, sure, go get one, with zero subsidies and pay all the taxes that ICE owners pay. And don't make me laugh with your one time (or yearly) registration fee. Gas car owners pay almost 50 cents for each gallon of fuel that they use. The only alternative for EV is pay per mile, and that is EXACTLY what the govt puppets are indeed pushing. EV owners will get it first, but they will try to cram it down on everyone's throat because at the end of the day their goal is to rid you of private transport. EV owners should also pay the cost of battery disposal (Which is VERY VERY Expensive with today's tech).

And one more thing - require ALL EV owners that they can charge their EVs from Solar (or any other non-grid) power that they must purchase and maintain, so that there is no grid impact for the rest of us. Alternatively have a separately metered line just for EV charging that includes all taxes in addition to electricity prices (Separate line, not a smart meter that can attempt to categorize your electric usage and force everyone into higher rate at the whim of the powercompany that is controlled by govt that is controlled by globalist stooges)


Lets see the tune EV owners sing then.

aenyc said:

The only problem is that LFP energy density is much worse than LiO so they are not applicable to EV application. They are also more sensitive to temperature drops.

And then there is Lithium sourcing that EV advocates continue to ignore - it is LITERALLY wreaking havoc on the planet (Amount of toxic pollution insane)

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Crude oil when spilled makes mess too.

aenyc said:

The only problem is that LFP energy density is much worse than LiO so they are not applicable to EV application.

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Virtually the entire DIY ESS market, and probably the commercially built ESS market, is based on LiFePO4 cells rejected for not meeting EV requirements.

Used in Busses in China, I think. And some models of Tesla. Not everybody needs 300 ~ 400 miles range on a charge.

According to this, LFP was 30% of EV market in 2022.
I would guess that is ranked in terms of kWh capacity, not number of vehicles.

D71 said:

Crude oil when spilled makes mess too.

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Crude oil spills are always a human factor.
Lithium fire is built into the technology. Any defect with cell manufacturing process or mechanical impact (such as collision) will compromise the battery and cause the "thermal runway".
Apples and oranges.

Hedges said:

Virtually the entire DIY ESS market, and probably the commercially built ESS market, is based on LiFePO4 cells rejected for not meeting EV requirements.

Used in Busses in China, I think. And some models of Tesla. Not everybody needs 300 ~ 400 miles range on a charge.

According to this, LFP was 30% of EV market in 2022.
I would guess that is ranked in terms of kWh capacity, not number of vehicles.

Lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries in EV cars: Everything you need to know

Lithium iron phosphate batteries are showing up in more EVs. Here’s why they’re an increasingly popular choice... and their drawbacks.

chargelab.co

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The problem is you are getting significanly less range and significantly heavier weight which reduces range further.
In other words, this technology is NOT suitable for mass EV market, ESPECIALLY forced mass market.

There are lots of cool DYI projects that work fine in niche, but that does not mean we must be forced into it by government at expense of available superior and cheaper tech. (Such as ICE cars and even hybrids)

Lifepo4 teslas, lightnings, Mach e, and BYD cars do just fine…. It sucks when facts keep getting in the way of jaded opinions

G00SE said:

Lifepo4 teslas, lightnings, Mach e, and BYD cars do just fine…. It sucks when facts keep getting in the way of jaded opinions

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Aha, with crappy range and zero demand! (And almost every manufacturer losing money on EVs (with Tesla compensating with their carbon credit scam)




You will have to do a lot better

It sounds to me that the anti-ev crowd will have to do better. The doom posts haven’t won anyone over it would seem

G00SE said:

It sounds to me that the anti-ev crowd will have to do better. The doom posts haven’t won anyone over it would seem

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Ofcourse not, we are the ones subsidizing your hobbies.
But worry not, pay per mile taxes for EV owners are coming and so is energy rationing (Enjoy your smart meter).

Hedges said:

Since when do ICE vehicles "explode"?
I think worst scenario is crash ruptures tank into passenger compartment, but not "explode"

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When do ICE vehicles explode? When an NFL player crashes into a woman and the woman and her dog burns to death in the explosion.


When a woman crashes into several vehicles and they all explode. All ICE vehicles.

On the flying cars and pie in the sky battery tech front:

I'm probably a bit of a shill, and I admit I own stock (penny stock), because I think these guys are on the right track. They seem to be meeting their deadlines for the technology scaling, they finally produced prototype 1AH pouches in Feb, and are currently building a large facility to produce both graphene and batteries at a much larger scale. The timelines they have seem realistic, and while I would expect delays, they don't seem to be fudging. The long term plan is to get production in North America because of the abundance of natural gas needed to make the graphene, and the weight of finished battery products/shipping. I note: They figured out a way to mass-produce graphene from natural gas, and the main by-product of the production is Hydrogen. Aluminum can be cheaply sourced from anywhere.

Initial testing is around 2.5 times the density of traditional Lithium based tech, but as always Lithum based tech is improving as well. The battery uses only graphene and aluminum, along with the electrolytes, no other esoteric metals. Their initial output is contracted to Rio Tinto, they have backing from a number of similar companies. They are also ramping up graphene for use in lubricants and industrial coatings, I'm guessing they hope that output will help pay the bills, until they can get the battery business ramped up. Mr Nicol is a former Shell engineer I believe.

An Al-Ion battery is a borderline super-capacitor. It remains to be seen if it will hold up for the 3000 charge/discharge cycles they claim they've reached. The recycling of aluminum is trivial on the disposal side, so a huge win there. A graphene coating on HVAC coils is apparently a huge win (10%+ improvement in heat dissapation) as well, again it remains to be seen if it remains viable long term.

I think this tech bodes well for the solar industry as well. Aluminum is relatively cheap, Imagine a rack of 10 of the current 5000 KWH batteries, 50KW. Now increase it by 2.5. . . 10x12500KWH or 125KWH in a single 7 ft rack. 250KWH in two racks. This tech is a win if it only matches density purely because of the thermal and charge rate, coupled with the inexpensive recyclable materials. Any increase in density is just layers of icing on a cake. I read a lot about solid-state and other tech, but we still aren't seeing it at any scale anywhere. Wait and see.

aenyc said:

Crude oil spills are always a human factor.
Lithium fire is built into the technology. Any defect with cell manufacturing process or mechanical impact (such as collision) will compromise the battery and cause the "thermal runway".
Apples and oranges.

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No ice catch fire too. I spent lot years with bicycle, motorcycle, cars, airplanes and diesel electric locomotive… everything has limitations.

Best form transportation is walking. I’ve said this before we are testing current ev limits. The r&d is being done in the field. On and by us. Many things are like that now. The sales ppl get ahold of stuff and FUDGE IT.

YOU ARE HAMMERING ON EV…. Noticeable and to extent deserves it…. Again the advertising and SALES DEPARTMENT are responsible for lot of problems. My local Dodge jeep dealer is sitting with big discounts on everything….they over priced on everything. Yes some over pricing on ice is to finance loss on ev. …… gm had $100,000 ev in 1990’s Over Price - economic loss killed them we tax payers got porked. Gm got bailed out over and over spent $350+ million in development at that point. Again we bailed them out - tax payers. Drilling for oil and natural gas are problematic too. When we take the oil and gas out we put nasty stuff back in ground - hazardous waste was been dumped years ago. So gas-oil is not clean either. Refinements make by products to which we found uses - plastics and even medicines - side effects.

Seems everything we do has negatives.

The chinese beating on africians has been termed propaganda….fact remains there was an ass whooping going on. Do we say don’t care just give us our gas and ev? What we don’t know or don’t see doesn’t matter? Like food from restaurant you really don’t know if somebody spit in it or worse. Yum yum.

Old Fords used gas tank as part of trunk floor….in accident tank ruptured fuel leaked and back seat let fuel into passenger compartment. Lot of ppl put metal plate and silicon behind rear set to separated passenger compartment from trunk space - fuel tanks on those old fords. Every once while ford still gets sued because someone got burned after being rear ended in wreck. Lead in gas was removed and it was resolved.

We live in an imperfect world.

D71 said:

The chinese beating on africians has been termed propaganda….fact remains there was an ass whooping going on. Do we say don’t care just give us our gas and ev? What we don’t know or don’t see doesn’t matter? Like food from restaurant you really don’t know if somebody spit in it or worse. Yum yum.

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Just don't fall into the trap: The fact that someone was abused to produce a material, that is also produced elsewhere, is not relevant to a product that might use that material. This is the straw-man.

My shirt was made with cotton. Cotton is grown all over the world. In some provence in Southeast Asia child slave labor is used to harvest cotton that might make it into my shirt. Thus cotton shirts are evil we should not make them because they are made with child slave labor.

This is the big trap that people often buy into. "Oh my, no more cotton shirts for me, they make them with child slave labor". No "they" don't, "they" make them in Malaysian sweatshops, where the women that work there work 12 hour days and are happy to have a job, and have no idea where the cotton came from to start with. So I don't buy the shirts and the 400 women in the factory happy to have a job at all now lose their jobs.

Would I prefer that my cotton came from the slave production? Of course not. Would I prefer the women in Malaysia had better working conditions and higher pay? Of course. Would I prefer to pay $200 for my shirt? . . .? If it were all automated how many of the 400 women making them would still have jobs and means to support their families? Hmmm.

Again propaganda is factual information used to make a point without presenting any factual information that may refute the point you are trying to make: Cotton is produced by child slave labor. Undoubtedly demonstrably true.

A straw-man is information presented that is not directly related to point you are making: Cotton shirts are bad because child slave labor may be used to produce the cotton. This has nothing to do with the quality or construction of the shirt. I like cotton shirts, they are comfortable and feel nice on my skin. They seem to hold up better for me. You want to dis cotton shirts talk to me about fabrics and sustainability of the fibers. Maybe that the Malaysian factories produce a better product than the Sir-Lankan possibly because they pay better with a minimal retail cost difference. Okay, now we are having a discussion.

D71 said:

We live in an imperfect world.

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True, but I would argue a far better one than the one our founding fathers lived in.

ksmithaz1 said:

Just don't fall into the trap: The fact that someone was abused to produce a material, that is also produced elsewhere, is not relevant to a product that might use that material. This is the straw-man.

My shirt was made with cotton. Cotton is grown all over the world. In some provence in Southeast Asia child slave labor is used to harvest cotton that might make it into my shirt. Thus cotton shirts are evil we should not make them because they are made with child slave labor.

This is the big trap that people often buy into. "Oh my, no more cotton shirts for me, they make them with child slave labor". No "they" don't, "they" make them in Malaysian sweatshops, where the women that work there work 12 hour days and are happy to have a job, and have no idea where the cotton came from to start with. So I don't buy the shirts and the 400 women in the factory happy to have a job at all now lose their jobs.

Would I prefer that my cotton came from the slave production? Of course not. Would I prefer the women in Malaysia had better working conditions and higher pay? Of course. Would I prefer to pay $200 for my shirt? . . .? If it were all automated how many of the 400 women making them would still have jobs and means to support their families? Hmmm.

Again propaganda is factual information used to make a point without presenting any factual information that may refute the point you are trying to make: Cotton is produced by child slave labor. Undoubtedly demonstrably true.

A straw-man is information presented that is not directly related to point you are making: Cotton shirts are bad because child slave labor may be used to produce the cotton. This has nothing to do with the quality or construction of the shirt. I like cotton shirts, they are comfortable and feel nice on my skin. They seem to hold up better for me. You want to dis cotton shirts talk to me about fabrics and sustainability of the fibers. Maybe that the Malaysian factories produce a better product than the Sir-Lankan possibly because they pay better with a minimal retail cost difference. Okay, now we are having a discussion.


True, but I would argue a far better one than the one our founding fathers lived in.

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Basic end is pricing….. why we fought wars and killed ppl sometimes.

Easy thing to do is make things for your self control all aspects. Grow our own cotton. Make our own products… levi for instance was made here as were other things. We keep the money in our system let rest world figure out their own deal. Instead we shipped out processing and tech all over the World. Chasing that next slave labor low price deal to make cheaper products.

Majority time those cheaper products are cost cutters and savings not passed to customers.

Sri Lanka is perfect example of chinese taking port and huge area land around port for debt. Made ppl get out took over. The chinese don’t do debit forgiveness like usa. The usa let it go on our national debt - tax payers here. The chinese don’t play that shit. They take things in fore closures.
They chinese are loaning lot of money out ..

I get what you are saying….at same time the cure is simple. We become independent in USA. We are ~$35 trillion in debt upside down on GDP…someone may want their money…chinese then the ass beatings start here…

I don't have a problem with EV's ..... I'd like to have one as a 2nd vehicle.
I am currently looking at the Bolt EUV just because there are some phenomenal deals to be had and those deals are going to disappear before long. A large % of my driving now is fairly short trips.
I am also considering a short lease on a model Y to see where things end up in a couple of years .... Sure would be nice to have an EV that charged itself when sitting around. It takes me a long time and a lot of test drives to decide on a vehicle.

I will be keeping my 3500 diesel dually regardless of what I decide for my next car ..... The push to expensive electric trucks that are totally impractical makes no sense to me .... and there are none anywhere on the horizon that will do what I need a truck to do.

What I have a problem with is the mandates ..... Vehicle manufacturers are being force to produce them at a pace that is unreasonable and unnecessary. In some areas people are being forced to buy them.
Also, there doesn't seem to be ANY kind of coherent plan to beef up the necessary grid charging infrastructure that will be necessary to support the scheduled mandates.

There is going to be growing pains to any new technology, and I'm OK with some amount of subsidies to help get that technology off the ground ..... I think the tax incentives require the vehicle to be manufactured in North America.

Climate hysteria is forcing politicians and manufacturers to make a lot of bad decisions.

If you are for the America First agenda, then who cares what China is doing in Africa. Who cares what happens to Ukraine. Who cares if China invades Taiwan. Not our problem. Don't spend American dollars on things that are not in America, right?

Bob B said:

I don't have a problem with EV's ..... I'd like to have one as a 2nd vehicle.
I am currently looking at the Bolt EUV just because there are some phenomenal deals to be had and those deals are going to disappear before long. A large % of my driving now is fairly short trips.
I am also considering a short lease on a model Y to see where things end up in a couple of years .... Sure would be nice to have an EV that charged itself when sitting around. It takes me a long time and a lot of test drives to decide on a vehicle.

I will be keeping my 3500 diesel dually regardless of what I decide for my next car ..... The push to expensive electric trucks that are totally impractical makes no sense to me .... and there are none anywhere on the horizon that will do what I need a truck to do.

What I have a problem with is the mandates ..... Vehicle manufacturers are being force to produce them at a pace that is unreasonable and unnecessary. In some areas people are being forced to buy them.
Also, there doesn't seem to be ANY kind of coherent plan to beef up the necessary grid charging infrastructure that will be necessary to support the scheduled mandates.

There is going to be growing pains to any new technology, and I'm OK with some amount of subsidies to help get that technology off the ground ..... I think the tax incentives require the vehicle to be manufactured in North America.

Climate hysteria is forcing politicians and manufacturers to make a lot of bad decisions.

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I think this all bears repeating, and I think it is where most people fit in. Rivian makes a very cool pickup, if all you need is something to run down to the hardware store with once and a while to pick up some 2x4's. OTOH if you need that 3400, I'm afraid you need that 3400. If I'm towing horses 200 miles and back over a weekend, I want to tow horses, not stop every 100 miles for a charge. Always choose the right tool for the job.

ksmithaz1 said:

I think this all bears repeating, and I think it is where most people fit in. Rivian makes a very cool pickup, if all you need is something to run down to the hardware store with once and a while to pick up some 2x4's. OTOH if you need that 3400, I'm afraid you need that 3400. If I'm towing horses 200 miles and back over a weekend, I want to tow horses, not stop every 100 miles for a charge. Always choose the right tool for the job.

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I think most of the people who are buying the Rivian just want to ride around being cool .... probably afraid to put anything in the back for fear they get a scratch. I guess that's fine if that's what you want in a vehicle.
I actually don't live too far from the Rivian plant .... Hope they succeed because they are good for the local economy.

But, I totally agree that everyone has a different need .... That's why the projected mandates are so ridiculous.