diy solar

diy solar

Three systems up and running on the truly off grid homestead.

offgriddle

"FOREVER BEGINNING"
Joined
Sep 21, 2019
Messages
1,452
Location
Oith
First photo parallel panels charge a pair of Trojan 100 amp, 6 volt lead acids to produce a whopping 60 amps of available current when fully charged. It is the oldest system on the homestead and the lead acids are perfect for the unheated solar equipment hutch that can see temps to minus 20 Farenheit and beyond. There is a back up gas jennie with modern, conditioning, honest 16 amp per hour shore power charger. ~ Second photo parallel panels charge an all in one Soauki Model G-500, the system works good except the Soauki seems to have a built in shock sensor that disengages charging if the unit is jarred even moderately, then requires a cycle of the on off button to restart charging, odd. ~ Third photo series panels charges a pair of no name brand lifepo's with built in bms, very happy with the battery performance BUT will have to say bye bye to the existing pair of non series connectable 12 volt lifepo's when I up my battery voltage to 24. The system is backed up with a dual fuel jennie and a lifepo shore power 10 amp per hour charger. Happy Hollandaise. ?
 

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I dig it! I like the rustic mount in the middle picture. Very cool. What is the mount in the third picture? How do those batteries do at 20 below? Do you warm them up before charging?
 
I dig it! I like the rustic mount in the middle picture. Very cool. What is the mount in the third picture? How do those batteries do at 20 below? Do you warm them up before charging?
The third picture is a temporary mount consisting of a heavy duty, fiberglass stepladder weighted down with rocks! The panels are screwed to 2 x 3's which are tie wrapped to the ladder rungs. In this case, temporary has turned into a few years but won't go on forever because I want my ladder back! ~ The lead acids are charged with a twenty or thirty amp PWM via only a few feet of #6 stranded copper and they have charged very well throughout all temperature ranges. I just added SULPHURIC ACID to all six cells topping them off to the rings about 3/4" down inside the cells. This system is four years old.
 
I had better buy a new hydrometer, I used to have one many moons ago.
 
So you are able to charge them at that temperature without issue?
Yes they still charge when it's well below zero farenheit. They batteries are out of the wind in a non heated enclosure and insulated to an extent with cardboard. The batteries have never been deeply discharged and left that way in freezing weather and doing so would cause the water to freeze, thusly ruining the battery.
 
Yes they still charge when it's well below zero farenheit. They batteries are out of the wind in a non heated enclosure and insulated to an extent with cardboard. The batteries have never been deeply discharged and left that way in freezing weather and doing so would cause the water to freeze, thusly ruining the battery.

Great information. Thanks for the reply.
 
Looks like I screwed up when I added a little bit of sulphuric acid to the batteries ... https://www.crownbattery.com/news/watering-your-lead-acid-battery-the-basics

Yup.
The sulfur is still in the battery, stuck to the plates.
You added more sulfur, the liquid (electrolyte) is already saturated, which is why you got sulfur stuck to plates when the oxygen/hydrogen (water) split and became gas, left the cell and the sulfur behind stuck to the plates.

Adding distilled water would have allowed room for solid sulfur to go back into solution (desulfidatin cycle), but now that sulfur has no where to go and won't come off the plates.
The electrolyte can't absorb any more sulfur, and you added extra sulfur, the electrolyte is beyond 100% saturation or sulfur wouldn't have hardened on the plates to begin with.

Battery 'Electrolyte' (commonly called 'Acid', but not entirely acid) is usually at 99% saturation when it goes in the cells...
What comes out is well over 99% oxygen/hydrogen with some small traces of sulfur.
The vast majority of sulfur never leaves the battery, all it needs is CLEAN water and a good charge to put the sulfur back in suspension.

'Human' Clean, and Battery Clean are two entirely different things.
Humans tolerate dissolved solids, salts, chemical bases, etc quite well,
Humans are one way pass systems, 'Open Circuits', or 'Total Loss' systems, how ever you want to look at it,
Humans have a collection & disposal of waste/impurities systems.

Batteries are a CLOSED LOOP, if it goes in, it stays in.
Chemical Base (hard water) neutralizes acids on contact, and forever.
Not only that, but the calcium residue plugs up the pours in the lead paste reducing the porosity,
Nucleation can't take place, the output is drastically reduced.
(Just like when sulfidation plugs pours in the paste)
The batteries will hold charge, but they are very difficult to charge, and reasonable discharge is impossible.

With 'Tap' water, it's chlorine.
Acid & chlorine do not get along at all, and there is no reversing the chemical reaction.

Water softeners replace crud, mostly metals you can taste, with salt/salt ions, and again the battery goes down hill FAST!

Even rain water picks up crud of all kinds as it condenses and falls through atmosphere, while perfectly 'Safe' for humans since it doesn't pick up pathogens or enough solids/chemicals to harm humans,
It's not so with batteries, from ionization to carbon to sulfides, it's a really bad idea.

The same is true with bottled 'Drinking' water.
If you have a close look, it's either tap water, 'Spring' water (raw ground water with minerals) and they USUALLY have salts & minerals added for 'Taste'...

Deionized water is *Supposed* to be "Ideal" and what the battery companies use to dilute the electrolyte base.
What the engineers told me (not having a PhD in chemistry I can't conclusively prove), is deionized water actually ATTRACTS the electrolyte through an ionization process.

I use deionized water in some metal plating processes, and the PRICE is a factor!
About $25 a gallon in single gallons jugs...

The 'Second Best' is distilled water, while not deionized, it will accept the sulfidation readily when the ionization from a desulfidatin charge hits it.
The desulfidation charge is literally 'super charging' the ionization/transfer process, making the sulfidation jump to the electrolyte.
It's described as 'Blowing' the sulfur off the plates, the same way people say you get 'Blown' out of airplanes,
But it's more accurate to say they are 'Sucked' out,
And the sulfur is dissolved and 'Sucked' off the plates.

This is where balancing the desulfidation charge comes in,
Over charge, the plates expand and the sulfur cracks off the plates, with no charge it remains a solid and lands in the bottom of the case.
In the bottom of the case, it doesn't do you one bit of good!

While I see videos on rehab & desulfidation of batteries, they almost ALWAYS overcharge and get big bubbles, lots of heat...
Tiny bubbles you can't hardly see, looks more like cloudy electrolyte than bubbles, and a slightly warm battery FOR A LONGER PERIOD is better...
A 'blast' charge, hot batteries, and bubbles so big they blow electrolyte up onto the battery top are clear signs the charge being forced into the battery (remember, desulfidation charges don't 'Float' or back down!).

-------

What *CAN* and *CAN'T* be rehabbed...
If you see straight plates with the sulfur all the way to the top of the plates...
Good candidate for rehab.
Straight plates means no warping from heat/overcharging, plates being wedged apart by sulfur buildup.
They will probably still have *some* electrolyte circulation so the added water/electrolyte can get to the sulfur build up.

Seriously warped plates (shorted, sulfur wedging plates apart/together)
And sulfur starting 1/2" or more down the plates from the top,
That's a battery that was run with low electrolyte, poor to no chance of rehab.
The very top of the plates are supported by their respective 'Busses' (called Bridges) and being soldered on, they don't move much.
If the force of heat warp or sulfur bends the TOP, supported parts of the plates, there is a 99% chance the unsupported parts of the plates (much weaker) are broken or shorted out.

Never drain the battery, never turn it on its side, never add anything but distilled or deionized water.

Draining or turning on its side will bring everything up from the bottom 'Mud Tray' and wedge it in the plates.
This isn't just the general crud carried in with water, it's sulfur that cracked off the plates, and if the battery was worked really hard, it's CONDUCTIVE pieces of lead/lead paste that cracked off the plates.

Really high quality batteries have a plate separator, a piece of strip material that zig-zags top to bottom between plates, but still allows electrolyte to pass through.
It's function is to keep even warped/broken plates from touching.
The bad news is, every 'Down' fold is holding everything that came off the plate, if you tilt/dump the battery, the crud comes out of that fold directly into the plates/bridges...

I will use deionized water in good candidates...
It speeds the process SAFELY, and gives the best chance of rehab.
If the battery is questionable, no sense in spending the money.
$25 a gallon on a questionable battery you KNOW was abused since plates are warped, and you KNOW it was run dry... Like betting the bankroll on a cow in a horse race...
It's your money to do with what your want if you want to prove it to yourself.

Otherwise it's nothing but distilled water for maintenance refilling.

Low water, and DRY PLATE TOPS are two entirely different things!
If you use a flashlight (NO MATCHES! ;) ) You will see a plastic collar that sticks down into the cell.
That collar will have a slot in the side somewhere.
The exact 'Perfect' electrolyte level is EXACTLY the bottom of that plastic collar, electrolyte just touching it.

*I* don't use an insulin syringe to fill my batteries, or an eye dropper either...
I'm NEVER 'Perfect' (and the batteries don't come from the factory 'Perfect' either).

Anything in the lower 1/2 of that tube is fine.
Below tube-- Add.
Complete full, suck some out and dispose of carefully.

Anything in the lower 1/2 of the tube, just fine, still air space at the top of the cell, and the slot (vent) isn't blocked, you are golden.
I keep 2 or 3 dollar store plastic turkey basters for filling, beats screwing with a funnel and they usually fit in the neck of a gallon jug (where they hang and plug the jug when not in use at my house).
Funnels don't let you see how much you are getting into the cell, turkey basters do.

It's up to you guys, I learned all this the hard ($$$) way, use it if you can...
 
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Hello Jeep and Gnu, Yeppers, fortunately I added very little SULPHURIC ACID. I surmise it's possible that once I ascertain the specific gravity with my new hydrometer, if need be I can suction out some liquid and add distilled water to return to the 65% water 35% acid ratio.
 
Hello Jeep and Gnu, Yeppers, fortunately I added very little SULPHURIC ACID. I surmise it's possible that once I ascertain the specific gravity with my new hydrometer, if need be I can suction out some liquid and add distilled water to return to the 65% water 35% acid ratio.

Not exactly that simple...
Specific gravity is non-linear and is both temp & state of charge reactive.
Non-linear means it goes up and down like a yo-yo as both charge and temp changes.
What you *Think* will produce a specific result, removing 'X' electrolyte, adding 'Y' amount of water will NOT produce 'Z' result,
The result usually winds up 42 & white mice looking for a towel.

I've TRIED (and failed) to balance electrolyte before,
As long as they don't decide to freeze, you *shouldn't* loose much service life,
Screwing with electrolyte balance screws with freeze point temp on top of everything else...
A low/discharged battery will freeze up to 30°F sooner than a charged battery.
(Yes, I learned that the hard way too..)

WWI & WWII submarines had an open space inside the battery case, the electrolyte was sucked out, filtered, cleaned, concentrated by distilling, and balanced before being reused...
Pretty much the same process is used (vastly upgraded) when electrolyte is recycled.

I've been places they do it (manufacturers/recyclers), but since it takes determining the pH and ion load, I never attempted it.

I was TOLD that the cell can be 10% out of balance and survive, it's built in so when water splits (literally!) and water is added, the cell can tolerate a 10% I'm balance before it's seriously damaged.

Taking into consideration how much volume in the cell is plates, do you think you exceeded 10% of electrolyte volume capacity?
In Golf Cart batteries, 10% of volume is tops of plates to bottom of the fill collar inside the cell.
Do you think your exceeded that?

*IF* it was just an ounce or two, I personally don't think you will have much of an issue.
I'd run as much water off in it as I dared and run it.
Leave the desulfidatin for better weather and lower liquid level...
 
Great info and I'm going to see if I can find any articles on WW2 era sub battery technology just because I like history and marvelling at how much people knew, (and didn't know), and the challenges they faced. ~ The tops of the plates of my batteries were well submerged and because I had very little acid left, I didn't quite make it to the fill rings. It's been a week since the adding and I assume now that the water and acid has been mixed due to the "bubbling" of charging and discharging cycles. I guess if I wanted to approach the original factory acid/water ratio, I could try removing a small amount of fluid from each cell and replacing that amount with distilled water. It would be a guesstimation on the amount to remove but perhaps worth the effort in order to minimize plate sulfation.
 
I do enjoy history, and history buffs are the folks I usually get along with best.
They know there is more than one way to skin a cat, and what's common today when they learn a little bit of something and become 'Newly Converted', there was a hundred versions/ways to do things before the new 'Whiz-Bang' version came along...

When the German U-boats hit the water, they WAY out performed anything any other country had, both WWI & WWII...
Complicated (for the time), but just kicked butt.

If you want to find out where the '6 Volt' and '12 Volt' standards we use today got started, take a look at cell voltages from the time batteries were standardized in groups of 3 or 6...
Calling the '6 Volt' and '12 Volts' was optimistic, and probably the charge voltage rather than the output.

I saw a submarine battery and had no idea what it was, it had a band clamp around the top.
The cells were re-buildable, and got rebuilt every time the sub came in for maintenance, every amp counted when they were operational.

From the voltage/amp hour ratings, you know it was probably solid plates or expanded metal plates and the paste process hadn't come along/been developed like it is today, porosity/surface area/nucleation is a force multiplier when it comes to converting chemical energy into electrical current.
The cutaway I saw at Exide had the suction tube installed in the corner of the canister and solid/waffle stamped plates.

I asked about automatic watering systems, and they said the battery had to live though 40° incline in any direction, intense shock, etc. and they didn't have automatic watering.
I'm real glad I don't have earthquakes or depth charges to deal with, I'm REAL happy with auto watering! (I'm lazy! ;) )

I get asked often about the Edison batteries, glass jars, hardwood or phenolic resin (Bakelite) tops,
100% re-buildable, iron & nickel plates,
While lower power, almost impossible to kill...
I just find them a history lesson in motion, and an example of what one guy can do on a home workbench when EVERYTHING else fails...

It's like canning food in actual metal cans at home,
About zero interest past saying it's 'Novel' but it's something entire communities got to get her to do before, and during WWII.
My best, most reliable metal seaming (seaming) machines are before aluminum was commonly available, so over 100 years old.
I do use a data logger (time/temp) instead of just way over cooking everything,
And I'm messing with electromagnetic induction for heat instead of open flame or steam.
(Pressurized steam being the only common way to drive temps above 230°F around the cans)
Since they were making re-flangers so cans can be reused in 1900, I whipped up a re-flanger so I have the capabilities lost to current general population.

I have the solar, batteries, inverters/converters, no sense in buying gas or cutting trees when electrical induction is so easy (for me).
It's not what you have, everything is out there, it's knowing how to use it...
 
The history of our understanding of electricity is mind boggling and new chapters of understanding are aded daily. Trying to grasp the gravity of obstacles that had to be surmounted when humans were developing the beginnings of understanding the very real phenomenon that we call, "electricity", blows my mind. The early scientific explorers didn't have the books of theories, facts, tools and computations that we have now to aid them in their understanding, instead, they were authoring them! And Tesla for example, with his discovery and demonstrating of the working phenomenon of alternating current via an electrically energized sinusoidal wave form that switches state's. And Marconi transmitting electromagnetic waves and modulating these waves with information ... I am permanently humbled, in awe and fascinated!
 
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I'm no Tesla! (No surprise there...)

Since you are the OP, and we are a little off subject and that seems OK with you...

Tesla was the first I know about to use electro-magnetic induction that I know about.
He notices (observation) rapidly switching polarity of AC current, noticing electrically conductive metals heated up in proximity to, but not touching the line feeds.

His theory was correct, it was the magnetic field that spun one direction then the other direction, that the eddy currents created friction in the molecules of the metals in proximity to those eddy currents.
The faster you switch polarity, the faster things heated.

He applied this to silver soldering, a form of brazing metals using pure silver filler, to make connections that live to this day.

I had some interest after seeing tungsten saw teeth being brass & silver brazed on a steel saw blade,
And switched some of my heat treating of brass over to electro-magnetic induction.
First Tesla for his take on things, the a PhD that does induction bonding for the aerospace industry and other corporations since he was the name that kept popping up when I was looking for base research.

Heat treating copper alloy, there is only one way to know exactly what the results are...
Micrograph inspection. Cross sectional density testing (Hardness, Rockwell or Vickers) will tell you that, but actually seeing if the induction heating was correct is to see if the grain structure is the correct size, and the bonds are without slivers/dust...

Micrograph, the 'Holes' are 'Hardness' test punches...

FC_head_25x_dichromate.jpg

IMI_neck_100_HV500_320x_dichromate.jpg

Now, thing I do (because I can, the equipment is here) is make and recondition firearms brass.
With proper heat treating, even used (fired) brass comes back to brand new specifications.
It's not done like the 'Average' home reloader does it, but once you understand what MOVES (physics) and how to get it back where it belongs, and properly heat treated, you honestly can't tell it from brand new.

Left is case qualifier, rejects cases that are too far out of specification to be reconstituted/reconditioned.
Center is a die plate roller that restores rim, groove, takes lower case bloating out.
Right, top down sizing dies that home reloaders commonly used, but can't reach the lower case swelling or restore rim/groove damage.

IMG_1189.JPG

And since my gear is mobile, and has access to solar power in the trailer, this BUSINESS is solar powered and mobile, I go to gun clubs and recondition their brass, about a dime everytime the machine goes 'clunk'.
Blue box is batteries, yellow and black is inverter.

IMG_1273.JPG

Then there is heat treating...
Only a few reloaders anneal ('Stress Relieve'/soften), none do proper heat treating I know about.
I do proper heat treating. The equipment doesn't exist, I had to build my own,
From little induction units...

IMG_0257_zpssyfipwfd.jpg

To adapting consumer available units to proper heat treating/reconstitution,IMG_1190.JPG

To building my own 3,000/Hr controller/induction unit...

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I built the scroll punch press from a 1903 brass button making machine, I had a contract for closed tubes (temp sensors), so when that was done, I made dies to crank out cartridge cases & bullet jackets...
Cases get heat treated, mostly electro-magnetic induction, 3 times minimum.
A QC strip from the press that shows progression through the dies...

image_zps5ssxiau7.jpg

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I made an electro-magnetic induction unit to power my home canning, both actual metal cans and glass jars.
I make Watts, the sun is free, and I don't have to buy propane or cut wood.
The pressure vessel (called a Retort) has to get the PRODUCT up to 230°F, that means the interior of the retort has to reach about 250°F,
And to keep the liquid in the cans/jars from flashing to steam and blowing out the cans/jars, I need about 15 psig above atmospheric.
Pressure & heat required...

I stepped into the 21st century with induction heat and I use a time/data logger IN the product to ensure the contents reached 230°F the center can/jar gets the data logger so I know every can/jar reached full temp.

When someone tells me I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm an idiot, the old ways don't have any meaning...
Well... OK then...
I wasn't aware what worked for 100 years (or 1,000 years) suddenly stopped working because something 'Digital' came along, but they are allowed to believe anything they want to...

I hang a cheap drill motor on an old hand cranked canner, grinder, mill, other tool and the sun does the work,
I guess I'm screwed when the sun stops shining, but coffee, sugar, salt & junk food is all we buy from the store,
We trade garden produce or pasture rental for meat,
And the 'Organic' folks pay premium prices for what comes out of the ground (solar powered!) food!

My wife makes soap out of stinkweeds (lavender) and wood ash, it sells for $35 a bar with a 1¢ ribbon tied around it...

OK, the old ways (with a little update) don't work, GOT IT!
I never have to worry about THEM being market share competition! ;)

I wonder if their wives buy 'Designer Dried Floral Arrangements' (river bottom weeds with a wire and ribbon tied around them) for $75 to $350...?
 
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