Lithium Battery question
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svetz
Works in theory! Practice? That's something else
From wikipedia:
So, that's a really loaded question and you're bound to see a lot of answers. The short answer is it could, but it probably won't.
The dispersion of energy follows an inverse-square law, so every mile distant from the event greatly lessens the impact. Even a Carrington Event that blanketed the Earth would be hit and miss.
Long wires (e.g., transmission lines) are going to be more affected and have stronger curents. When the last Carrington Event hit in 1859 it caused fires at telegraph stations and some lines literally melted. From Wikipedia:
But small devices and short wire spans won't see as large currents and might be fine. Solar panels for instance, if disconnected from their wires, could probably survive a fairly big jolt. Attached to wires they'd see could see big currents that might destroy the diodes if not the panel. So, that's probably a "plus" for the cutoffs string inverters have to have these days.
NASA currently monitors the sun and sends out warnings when there are CMEs. Usually only HAM operators and airlines care, but as it typically takes days for them to get here we'd probably get warnings in advance to flip off our breakers in the event of a "really big one".
The guys that make the Sol-Ark inverter did EMP work for the military, and they actually have a version of their inverter that can survive up to a certain level of hit.
So, that's a really loaded question and you're bound to see a lot of answers. The short answer is it could, but it probably won't.
The dispersion of energy follows an inverse-square law, so every mile distant from the event greatly lessens the impact. Even a Carrington Event that blanketed the Earth would be hit and miss.
Long wires (e.g., transmission lines) are going to be more affected and have stronger curents. When the last Carrington Event hit in 1859 it caused fires at telegraph stations and some lines literally melted. From Wikipedia:
But small devices and short wire spans won't see as large currents and might be fine. Solar panels for instance, if disconnected from their wires, could probably survive a fairly big jolt. Attached to wires they'd see could see big currents that might destroy the diodes if not the panel. So, that's probably a "plus" for the cutoffs string inverters have to have these days.
NASA currently monitors the sun and sends out warnings when there are CMEs. Usually only HAM operators and airlines care, but as it typically takes days for them to get here we'd probably get warnings in advance to flip off our breakers in the event of a "really big one".
The guys that make the Sol-Ark inverter did EMP work for the military, and they actually have a version of their inverter that can survive up to a certain level of hit.
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Wiley
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Thanks for the come back. It's a rainy day here and I decided to find out more on a nagging question I've had on what I perceive as the weakness of the lithium iron phospate (Battle Born 100 amp battery) that I have been considering. On a owner built lithium battery (like Will describes) one adds the bms but on the Battle Born it's integral so if it fails the battery is useless. Were I to build one I would have a spare bms.
After Googling and finding nothing about 'bms and emp protection' ( granted a pretty esoteric search) I downloaded the US EMP Commission Report which although dated is pretty thorough. Unfortunately in the cases where they reference a battery, they do not elaborate what kind of battery.
But what you said about the E3 wave is very close to my understanding although the EMP Commission had this somewhat eye opening comment about the E3:
"Geomagnetic storms represent an approximation to an E3-induced voltage effect. The
experience to date is of events that may be orders of magnitude smaller in scope and less
severe than that expected from an EMP" Pg 43 EMP Commission 2008
To me the line: "The experience to date is of events that may be orders of magnitude smaller and less severe" changes the perspective on how bad the Carrington event was as compared to what an emp might deliver. Orders of magnitude...10 times 100 times...?
However, it's the E 1 and E 2 which are perhaps more of a concern to the home solar set up. Not considering any grid tie system because IMHO they would have any of the problems that would be associated with long line (antenna) E 3 wave. The US EMP Commission Report had this to say about the E 1 wave:
"The early time EMP, or E1, is a freely propagating field with a rise time in the range of
less than one to a few nanoseconds. E1 damages or disrupts electronics such as the
SCADA, DCS, and PLC as well as communications and to some extent transportation
(necessary for supplies and personnel). This disrupts control systems, sensors, communication
systems, protective systems, generator systems, fuel systems, environmental mitigation
systems and their related computers, as well as the ability to repair."
and further on the page:
"The E1 pulse also causes flashovers in the lower voltage distribution system, resulting
in immediate broad geographic scale loss of electrical load and requiring line or insulator
replacement for restoration." pg 35 EMP Commission 2008
It's the flashover part that would perhaps take out the bms.
I was /am hoping someone would have information or testing of any of these newer battery types.
Thanks,
Wiley
After Googling and finding nothing about 'bms and emp protection' ( granted a pretty esoteric search) I downloaded the US EMP Commission Report which although dated is pretty thorough. Unfortunately in the cases where they reference a battery, they do not elaborate what kind of battery.
But what you said about the E3 wave is very close to my understanding although the EMP Commission had this somewhat eye opening comment about the E3:
"Geomagnetic storms represent an approximation to an E3-induced voltage effect. The
experience to date is of events that may be orders of magnitude smaller in scope and less
severe than that expected from an EMP" Pg 43 EMP Commission 2008
To me the line: "The experience to date is of events that may be orders of magnitude smaller and less severe" changes the perspective on how bad the Carrington event was as compared to what an emp might deliver. Orders of magnitude...10 times 100 times...?
However, it's the E 1 and E 2 which are perhaps more of a concern to the home solar set up. Not considering any grid tie system because IMHO they would have any of the problems that would be associated with long line (antenna) E 3 wave. The US EMP Commission Report had this to say about the E 1 wave:
"The early time EMP, or E1, is a freely propagating field with a rise time in the range of
less than one to a few nanoseconds. E1 damages or disrupts electronics such as the
SCADA, DCS, and PLC as well as communications and to some extent transportation
(necessary for supplies and personnel). This disrupts control systems, sensors, communication
systems, protective systems, generator systems, fuel systems, environmental mitigation
systems and their related computers, as well as the ability to repair."
and further on the page:
"The E1 pulse also causes flashovers in the lower voltage distribution system, resulting
in immediate broad geographic scale loss of electrical load and requiring line or insulator
replacement for restoration." pg 35 EMP Commission 2008
It's the flashover part that would perhaps take out the bms.
I was /am hoping someone would have information or testing of any of these newer battery types.
Thanks,
Wiley
b.james
New Member
Remember the cases can be pried apart to get at the inards if need be . Spare BMS's for $20 each work well The cells should still be good shouldn't they?
Wiley
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b.james,
I posted to disasterprepper on youtube who presents himself as a NASA scientist/engineer and seems to know his stuff. He replied that while he had not explored it fully, he did expect the bms to be damaged or destroyed after an emp.
That's a interesting idea...prying the cases apart and replacing the innards as needed. But having a bms that would work with what one finds inside might be problematic after an emp. One couldn't simply go online and order out the correct bms. I will contact Battle Born to see if they sell the electronic controls (bms and temp sensors etc.) as replacement /user serviceable parts. I would expect opening the case would instantly void the 10 year warranty so one would only do it after a need arises (which, if after an emp, would mean most warranties on anything would be pretty much useless). So I don't think they will really be engaging the idea, but one can hope. A clever battery design would be one where the bms is in a cassette sort of piece where it could be removed and replaced as needed. I would bet one could sell a lot of batteries to the government if they were easily repairable after an emp.
As for actual damage to the cells from an emp, I would hope an expect would chime in here. Hopefully they would not go up in flames like a lithium ion battery.
One might reasonably think how the lithium iron phosphate cells would react to the destruction of the control circuit might be relative to what sort of damage occurs. There are several people who have emp test chambers and who post on you tube... As the up front costs would be high I would thing this is something Battle Born would want to be able to use in their advertising.."When you really need it our batteries will be there." sort of thing.
As sort of an aside; My biggest gripe about the units that are "all in one" or are not serviceable is the idea that if one part fails the whole unit is junk.
Wiley
I posted to disasterprepper on youtube who presents himself as a NASA scientist/engineer and seems to know his stuff. He replied that while he had not explored it fully, he did expect the bms to be damaged or destroyed after an emp.
That's a interesting idea...prying the cases apart and replacing the innards as needed. But having a bms that would work with what one finds inside might be problematic after an emp. One couldn't simply go online and order out the correct bms. I will contact Battle Born to see if they sell the electronic controls (bms and temp sensors etc.) as replacement /user serviceable parts. I would expect opening the case would instantly void the 10 year warranty so one would only do it after a need arises (which, if after an emp, would mean most warranties on anything would be pretty much useless). So I don't think they will really be engaging the idea, but one can hope. A clever battery design would be one where the bms is in a cassette sort of piece where it could be removed and replaced as needed. I would bet one could sell a lot of batteries to the government if they were easily repairable after an emp.
As for actual damage to the cells from an emp, I would hope an expect would chime in here. Hopefully they would not go up in flames like a lithium ion battery.
One might reasonably think how the lithium iron phosphate cells would react to the destruction of the control circuit might be relative to what sort of damage occurs. There are several people who have emp test chambers and who post on you tube... As the up front costs would be high I would thing this is something Battle Born would want to be able to use in their advertising.."When you really need it our batteries will be there." sort of thing.
As sort of an aside; My biggest gripe about the units that are "all in one" or are not serviceable is the idea that if one part fails the whole unit is junk.
Wiley
eddie1261
Solar Enthusiast
It would be really great if someone told us what an EMP is.
TCgreg
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eddie1261
Solar Enthusiast
That helps gather context. Thanks.
Wiley
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There is a significant amount of info available online.
http://www.empcommission.org will get you started down a fairly deep rabbit's hole. There you can link to the US Commission's official report and also to some updates.
The book "One Second After" written by William R. Forstchen describes what is expected to happen should this weapon ever be used.
People say nuclear weapons will not be used in the next world conflict (WW3) however, it is hard to imagine these weapons not being used as they represent the biggest bang for the buck; do not cause pressure wave/blast destruction nor radiation/fallout.
Getting sightly into the fringe area. This is the weapon that makes North Korea such a threat. There are reports of the existence of a "Super EMP" of Russian design the plans for which were given to the N. Koreans. This is old info ( a couple of years old). Supposedly the trigger for this weapon was a hydrogen bomb.... a technology at the time was believed to be several years away from NK. September of that year NK detonated their last underground test and to the surprise of many, it is believed to have been very close to the needed size.
A scary fact of the weapon is that the point of explosion is something like 240 miles up plus or minus a dozen or twenty miles and the radius of single point to cover the continental US is likewise many miles. So it does not require exact targeting. Also note the N. Koreans have launched satellites in higher orbits.
Whether they actually have such a weapon or have been able to build the weapon small enough to fit on their existing ICBM is unknown. Like I said a fairly deep rabbit hole.
Wiley
http://www.empcommission.org will get you started down a fairly deep rabbit's hole. There you can link to the US Commission's official report and also to some updates.
The book "One Second After" written by William R. Forstchen describes what is expected to happen should this weapon ever be used.
People say nuclear weapons will not be used in the next world conflict (WW3) however, it is hard to imagine these weapons not being used as they represent the biggest bang for the buck; do not cause pressure wave/blast destruction nor radiation/fallout.
Getting sightly into the fringe area. This is the weapon that makes North Korea such a threat. There are reports of the existence of a "Super EMP" of Russian design the plans for which were given to the N. Koreans. This is old info ( a couple of years old). Supposedly the trigger for this weapon was a hydrogen bomb.... a technology at the time was believed to be several years away from NK. September of that year NK detonated their last underground test and to the surprise of many, it is believed to have been very close to the needed size.
A scary fact of the weapon is that the point of explosion is something like 240 miles up plus or minus a dozen or twenty miles and the radius of single point to cover the continental US is likewise many miles. So it does not require exact targeting. Also note the N. Koreans have launched satellites in higher orbits.
Whether they actually have such a weapon or have been able to build the weapon small enough to fit on their existing ICBM is unknown. Like I said a fairly deep rabbit hole.
Wiley
Scishow just put out a video on CME and the damage caused by one. Awesome video, I learned a lot. Thumbnail looks like a spider...
Many mistake EMP and CME as similar or the same, but they are not.
An emp would be from large pulse of magnatisim wave, commonly generated by a lightning strike nearby or a nuclear detonation or pulse bomb...
A CME is a burst of plasma particles ejected from the sun that bombard the earth’s magnetic field causing it to collapse, or shift. The shift in the field moving across wires on the surface of the earth are what affect the voltages... so the earth basically turns a string of wire into a massive generator or inverter creating massive energy waves...
Many mistake EMP and CME as similar or the same, but they are not.
An emp would be from large pulse of magnatisim wave, commonly generated by a lightning strike nearby or a nuclear detonation or pulse bomb...
A CME is a burst of plasma particles ejected from the sun that bombard the earth’s magnetic field causing it to collapse, or shift. The shift in the field moving across wires on the surface of the earth are what affect the voltages... so the earth basically turns a string of wire into a massive generator or inverter creating massive energy waves...
Well... that helps... my guess was too gross for public viewing... I live in a house with 3 women and myself...
b.james
New Member
Why not . I do. It won't be to spec probably but for $20 it gets the cells going again . You are talking about an EMP so assuming the battery is dead you open the case to harvest the cells . They will all probably work fine and no BMS is needed in the short term . The BMS is only to stop you over discharging cells and overcharging basically . A bit more but inconsequential here. I don't think BB will be interested whatsoever but who knows?
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svetz
Works in theory! Practice? That's something else
Great video @Supervstech, thanks for posting that!
The only two things I heard I was dubious on was that the warning would be "hours"; Typically it's one to five days. They also talked about satellites at L1, but that disregards satellites in solar orbit specifically monitoring the sun (e.g., SOHO). (links are to references). Although, it wouldn't hurt for everyone to write their congressman asking to have the EBS broadcast warnings to disconnect from the grid at your load center in the event of a big one coming. Not that you need it. You can get text messages from services that monitor the sun (usually it's for those that want to see the aurora borealis; check out spaceweather.com; but NOAA has a free no frills one: https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/products/geophysical-alert-wwv-text )
Wiley
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The reason I say that is because there will be no online if we (whatever country) are the object of an EMP attack.
Here's a link to a more current article concerning the EMP threat;
New EMP warning: US will ‘cease to exist,’ 90 percent of population will die - Washington Examiner
At a time when the military is starting to take the potential for an attack on the national electric grid more seriously, a newly declassified report is warning of an electronic world war launched by Russia, Iran, North Korea, and China that could wipe out North America, Europe, and Israel. With...
www.washingtonexaminer.com
Now the death count is high but hasn't significantly changed since the original report was issued.
Wiley
svetz
Works in theory! Practice? That's something else
I'm not saying they're wrong, but do they frequently say things in a way designed to manipulate readers (e.g., the boy who cried wolf). What does mediabiasfactcheck say about the Washington Examiner reference:
Scientific American on the other hand is generally more about the science: https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...dangerous-but-not-for-reasons-gingrich-cites/
What does mediabiasfactcheck say about Scientific American:
There's left leaning articles too (e.g., The Campaign to Terrify You About EMP). Once politics get's involved the truth is a lot harder to find.
Scientific American on the other hand is generally more about the science: https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...dangerous-but-not-for-reasons-gingrich-cites/
What does mediabiasfactcheck say about Scientific American:
There's left leaning articles too (e.g., The Campaign to Terrify You About EMP). Once politics get's involved the truth is a lot harder to find.
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gnubie
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Any EMP (CME, nulcear explosion, big picture stuff) that results in something with only 20 odd metres of wire connected to it failing is going to break civilisation in the local area or globally to the point where you won't care about electricity. You'll be too busy wondering where your next meal is coming from.
The only exception to that would be a nearby lighting strike.
The only exception to that would be a nearby lighting strike.
Wiley
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svetz, There's a reason I referred to it as a rabbit hole. I read the report, and have read many of the updates. One gets to draw ones own conclusions IF one believes such official reports. I have also read several of the declassified reports which were released under the Freedom of Information Act. The military take this seriously, many others do not. And like many things there are those out to make money off it and those who use it to further their own agendas.
My original question was concerning BMS and what one should expect were there to be an EMP (regardless if E-1, E-2 or E-3 using the classification used in the report). I asked here and I have called Battle Born and the lady who answered was easy to speak with and she didn't have a clue what I was talking about. I asked to speak with an engineer and she said he was out but that she would relay my questions to him and that he would reply by email. We'll see what he has to say or even he replies at all. I have contacted someone who claims to be knowledgeable in the field. He said he expected that the BMS would be damaged or destroyed. But then again he makes a portion of his living off EMP protection.
But just because someone promotes and makes money off of selling life jackets doesn't mean not having them aboard is a good idea.
Personally it would seem to me that there is a significant missing of opportunity here. The lady at Battle Born said they had not tested their battery for EMP (to the best of her knowledge). I have yet to learn what happens to the actual cell itself when subjected to near instantaneous high density energy fields. I do not know how these batteries are constructed or the chemistry involved. I suspect many of us have seen videos of what happens to a 18650 Li Ion battery when shorted internally so simply saying nothing will happen without testing is not good science. Yes, Lithium Iron Phosphate is different but just because it's different doesn't mean it will not react poorly nor react well.
Honestly right now for me , for what I need, and what I have learned I am closer to getting lead acid. Odd since I just convinced my wife that spending the grand apiece for the Battle Born was a good idea.
Wiley
My original question was concerning BMS and what one should expect were there to be an EMP (regardless if E-1, E-2 or E-3 using the classification used in the report). I asked here and I have called Battle Born and the lady who answered was easy to speak with and she didn't have a clue what I was talking about. I asked to speak with an engineer and she said he was out but that she would relay my questions to him and that he would reply by email. We'll see what he has to say or even he replies at all. I have contacted someone who claims to be knowledgeable in the field. He said he expected that the BMS would be damaged or destroyed. But then again he makes a portion of his living off EMP protection.
But just because someone promotes and makes money off of selling life jackets doesn't mean not having them aboard is a good idea.
Personally it would seem to me that there is a significant missing of opportunity here. The lady at Battle Born said they had not tested their battery for EMP (to the best of her knowledge). I have yet to learn what happens to the actual cell itself when subjected to near instantaneous high density energy fields. I do not know how these batteries are constructed or the chemistry involved. I suspect many of us have seen videos of what happens to a 18650 Li Ion battery when shorted internally so simply saying nothing will happen without testing is not good science. Yes, Lithium Iron Phosphate is different but just because it's different doesn't mean it will not react poorly nor react well.
Honestly right now for me , for what I need, and what I have learned I am closer to getting lead acid. Odd since I just convinced my wife that spending the grand apiece for the Battle Born was a good idea.
Wiley
Larry Oswald
New Member
I would think the lead shielding in your walls and roof should protect your batteries but the panels themselves might be slightly scarred.
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