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Storing heat in bricks

A regular fire brick in a stove will begin to lose heat in about an hour without an external heat source. Normal cement block with concrete or soil filler may hold heat longer.

It comes down to thermal mass. It may work better to heat water and circulate in pipes in the concrete like that used in radiant heat.
 
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I admire your thinking out of the box, however you need to think in terms of thermal heat storage and how much energy it takes to increase temperature of a medium. This is the amount of specific heat energy available for extraction in future use. You need to read this article first, I've ran across it more than once and it is good information concerning specific heat energy stored per gram. https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth103/node/1005#:~:text=If our rock had a,same amount as the rock.

1000 gallons of water raised from 135F to 185F is about 416K BTU's (122 Kwh) That is the amount of specific heat that can be extracted from the water when dropping the temp from 185F to 135F.


Radiant heat works at around 110F to 120F so there is even more heat energy that can be taken from thermal storage yet still heat the structure before recharging the thermal storage. At 110F from 185F is 625K BTU's. (183 Kwh)

This video is where the figures come from and I've watched it several times.


Saturday I drove 250 miles to pick up this pair of 525 gallon each ASME certified galvanized tanks. These were recently removed from a water treatment plant. I just happened to get very lucky to find these, most use a converted 500 gallon propane tank on end and weld in the needed fittings.

Thermal storage tanks.jpg

I'm very lucky, these will not require any changes for needed ports and are perfectly suited for the intended purpose. These will get insulated at install plus have a wall built around them filled with insulation. Why am I adding thermal storage in the form of buffer tanks? For heating my home. I am installing a wood boiler and these tanks are not only for thermal storage (using buffer tanks with boilers is another subject) from the boilers but also for storage from an air to water heat pump or even just electrical resistance coils. It gives options to utilize when the sun shines to collect and store energy or use biomass.

The advantages of radiant heat and low temp emitters is the length of time that can elapse before recharge is needed. Radiant slab heat like in my shop will hold the temp for several days easily due to warming the concrete slab (thermal mass) but with thermal storage this can be extended. A side benefit is the temperature will be constant, even though it slowly falls. Last year at this time, I spent New Year's weekend changing out my shop boiler that was leaking water into the heat exchanger. I raised the slab temp to about 82F and this allowed me a few days to change the connections and plumbing for the new boiler. Radiant and low temp emitters such as panel emitters are the way of the future regardless of where the energy comes from.

Rock, bricks, etc are not good thermal storage. While it might sound good, the goal is specific heat that can be drawn from the storage medium. While the thermal mass of a concrete floor with radiant seems like it stores heat for some time, it still isn't as good as water. Some phase change materials can store more than water but phase change comes at a premium price as temps needed and resulting infrastructure to house it increase substantially. Take for instance heat sources needed to reach phase change. A simple efficient inverter air to water heat pump couldn't be used which would be more efficient than using resistance heating which will get higher temps but comes at an efficiency loss.

The current move seems to be towards air to water heat pumps. Ground source seems to be on the decline, especially the well loop type where water is pumped out of a well, specific heat extracted and water dumped down another well/drain. My neighbor has one, he always has trouble with it. The well water seems to destroy the heat pump internals, The heat exchanger, pumps and even the compressor as the unit gets passages plugged leading to longer run times are always failing. I think in 20 some years he is on unit number 4.

One thing you need to remember is that you need to generate and input as much specific heat energy as you will pull out.
 
Grundfos makes some great pumps but none of them can pump bricks. A lot of people talk about how much heat you can store in brick (sand) but none talk about how to successfully deliver that heat to the space.
 
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One thing you need to remember is that you need to generate and input as much specific heat energy as you will pull out.
I spent hours reading about how one could trap heat in the form of water in underground cisterns. The presenter provided some fancy math.

Water is a good transport method for heat exchange. He was talking about free energy.

I even tried an experiment based on his writings. At the end of the day he was smoke and mirrors. It’s not that water can’t be used to move heat it’s just that there is no free lunch.

Those are some impressive water tanks. Radiant heat has a proven track record. Look forward to future updates.
 
Water 1.163Wh/Kg/K * 65°C(dt) = 76Wh/Kg
Brick 0.278Wh/Kg/K * 550°C(dt)= 153Wh/Kg
Run the figures for the same delta. That is a pretty ridiculous comparison.

As Oz stated, you won't be pumping bricks. :ROFLMAO:

One thing you miss is one law of thermodynamics. Heat moves to cold, the higher the delta between the heat and cold, the faster the transfer. As delta lowers, the transfer will decrease. An object at 550C delta will emit heat at a rate very high. You will need some serious insulation to hold the specific heat of the object.
 
Run the figures for the same delta.
The point of bricks is 10x delta they can handle. And they stay solid unlike water. Heat exchanger is used to retrieve heat or clever design as with UK storage space heaters.
 
I spent hours reading about how one could trap heat in the form of water in underground cisterns. The presenter provided some fancy math.

Underground is not good unless you can keep any water from touching the surface of the tank. Any water touching and it will transfer heat at a high rate even with good insulation around the tank.
Water is a good transport method for heat exchange. He was talking about free energy.

No such thing as free energy, anyone who speaks of it is a quack.

I even tried an experiment based on his writings. At the end of the day he was smoke and mirrors. It’s not that water can’t be used to move heat it’s just that there is no free lunch.

I'm building a garage/shop for the tanks and boiler. Any heat lost from the boiler and tanks will heat that building. The shop portion is for all the woodworking equipment that clutter my current shop and have spread across 3 buildings. Plus other things. We could use a garage and heated is a bonus.

Those are some impressive water tanks. Radiant heat has a proven track record. Look forward to future updates.
This will be a multi year project. I started collecting pieces so I could plan the building. I needed to determine ceiling and door height as an example.
 
The point of bricks is 10x delta they can handle.

I understand that however you miss several key points I mentioned concerning thermodynamics. I work in mobile HVAC all thru the summer, I know just a little bit about moving heat energy. The fact is per gram, water is the better store of energy.


And they stay solid unlike water. Heat exchanger is used to retrieve heat or clever design as with UK storage space heaters.
The same thermal energy (btu's or Kwh) is required to charge a 10X delta substance as any substance of lower delta concerning available thermal energy for use. One can only extract the same amount of thermal energy as put in. The losses at 10X delta will be considerably higher however.

Those of you who think they can charge thermal storage to use all thru winter without spending a huge amount of money are living a fantasy. To get to that point, you will need a phase change medium. Technicalities aside, it isn't impossible but it sure isn't economical.
 
Yeah in the UK we call those storage heaters and they run on the Economy 7 tariff, well at least they did when I was a kid 40 years ago LOL.
They had a manual damper on the top that you could adjust to regulate the heat output but they invariably were extremely hot in the morning and had no heat left by the end of the day so overall slightly useless.
Things have moved on a lot since then. We have storage heaters Dimplex Quantums (the latest can be controlled via the internet) as we don't have access to a gas supply (as in natural gas not petrol). We store the heat in the bricks inside the heaters using overnight cheap rate electricity, which also charges our storage battery, and release the heat at set times throughout the day, where a fan operates, pushing air through the heaters, around the hot bricks and out as heated air. They are pretty efficient. We never run out of heat as used to happen with the older style. The older style had very little insulation and very little control, the Quantums are the exact opposite!
If anyone is thinking of designing and building their own 'brick heat storage' then looking the Quantums might give them some useful information.
I am not advocating that this process of storing and then releasing heat is the best process, though if you could use free energy during hot days and store the heat for a cold night (on the same day) then it might be a viable option. But isn't that what a lot of us do anyway and would it be simpler just to store the free energy in a battery and use that to power a heater when it gets cold?
 
Water 1.163Wh/Kg/K * 65°C(dt) = 76Wh/Kg
Brick 0.278Wh/Kg/K * 550°C(dt)= 153Wh/Kg
As part of the learning process regarding thermal storage, I ran across John Siegenthaler's training videos. Start with this part of the video comparing various storage medium and the volume required. He does talk about concrete and sand for the same temperature change compared to water.


While you might think super heating a medium to a high temperature is easy, it isn't as easy as you think, it may not be efficient and it may not be inexpensive to implement.
 
Hi. Some interesting ideas in here. I like that people are poking at the edges. Some things are viable, and some are not, but it never hurts to do the thought experiment or even some testing. That's how we find new ideas.

Geothermal (ground source) was mentioned in a negative light above, but I will say my ground source heat pump is on year 13 and I don't regret it a bit. Closed loop, and north enough to need some serious heat, but it works well for me. The bit of storage in the ground temp, coupled with the delayed ground temp swing for the seasons makes it especially good in the first 1/2 of winter or summer. That and radiant floors for the coldest couple months works well for me.

There is also a lot of mention above of losses when changing mediums, etc. That is true in one way, but in another, as long as all your heat losses are contained in the same envelope you are trying to heat, you are not really out anything heat wise. However, losses can happen if your heating system goes out to another building, like a boiler.

I like seeing the plans put into action. Keep your thinking caps on.
 
Hi. Some interesting ideas in here. I like that people are poking at the edges. Some things are viable, and some are not, but it never hurts to do the thought experiment or even some testing. That's how we find new ideas.
I wholeheartedly agree... to a point.

However, along those lines I recently heard something that really hit me.

“In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert’s there are few”​

― Shunryu Suzuki

At risk of being labeled the "expert" (I'm not) I can stay I've been around this stuff for a long time and I've yet to see a sand and/or seasonal heat storage project that really panned out. To be honest I think many were purposely designed to relieve investors of thier money or garner government grants knowing full well they wouldn't pan out.

Still if anyone is going to crack this sand and/or seasonal heat storage challenge it will be someone who hasn't already figured out that it can't be done.

Geothermal (ground source) was mentioned in a negative light above, but I will say my ground source heat pump is on year 13 and I don't regret it a bit. Closed loop, and north enough to need some serious heat, but it works well for me. The bit of storage in the ground temp, coupled with the delayed ground temp swing for the seasons makes it especially good in the first 1/2 of winter or summer. That and radiant floors for the coldest couple months works well for me.
I too am on year 13 with my closed loop geothermal. Love it, only problem was a fan motor failed a few months before the 10 year warranty was up so it only cost me an $85 for a service call. Most of the trouble with geothermal that I've seen comes from inexperienced installers and/or open loop (pump and dump) systems..
 
Pump and dump is the worst (never ending problems), only way I'd ever consider ground source would be closed loop. I own a backhoe and could install my own loops easily plus install my own unit but with the new air to water units, I'd certainly run the figures for both.
 
Pump and dump is the worst (never ending problems), only way I'd ever consider ground source would be closed loop. I own a backhoe and could install my own loops easily plus install my own unit but with the new air to water units, I'd certainly run the figures for both.
If stats are to be believed (50/50 shot there...) the air source are getting much closer to the ground source. Still not quite there for sub -20F environments but very good progress. Now that I have the ground loop I would definitely replace the water source heat pump, but if I was building new I would look into air. The dumb design of the ones I saw so far have the water going to the outdoor part of the unit. That seems off to me.

I went with a waterfurnace synergy 3D. Heats air, hydronic and potable water (desuperheat), all in the same unit. Luckily I have a friend that does excavation. We installed my slightly oversized ground loop at about 10ft deep.
I too am on year 13 with my closed loop geothermal. Love it, only problem was a fan motor failed a few months before the 10 year warranty was up so it only cost me an $85 for a service call. Most of the trouble with geothermal that I've seen comes from inexperienced installers and/or open loop (pump and dump) systems..
Nice to hear it's working for you. I agree on the open loop, pump and dump too. You would need perfect water for that to work long term. It just isn't likely to work out.
 
You bury it in a portable volcano... Don't you know anything?
IIRC , from my jewelry manufacturing days , 90% platinum could tolerate that amount of heat… about 3200- 3300 F , So technically it could be used , but at about 1000 USD per Oz on the spot market Today , X how ever many thousands of lbs the 2 inch thick plates the container weighed + fabrication cost and the resulting security team to guard it 24/7.

……… well…. With no profit to the builder it would cost at least Several Hundred Million dollars,
depending on platinums price.

Then you would have to find a way to insulate the white hot platinum container. This is overall a very bad idea.

It would be well out of the price range for everyone I have ever known…

I think a heat pump or some space heaters sound more practical.

Just sayin……..
J.
 
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If stats are to be believed (50/50 shot there...) the air source are getting much closer to the ground source. Still not quite there for sub -20F environments but very good progress. Now that I have the ground loop I would definitely replace the water source heat pump, but if I was building new I would look into air. The dumb design of the ones I saw so far have the water going to the outdoor part of the unit. That seems off to me.

Much of the gains with air to water heat pumps is the use of thermal storage. Run the unit during the day, which also is the same time the sun will be out, with temps higher than at night. I'm always looking for efficiency curves on air to air units and never seem to locate any so it is hard to know at what temp the efficiency drops off. Many use the heat strip anyway when temps get very cold.

The reason for the water/glycol to the condensing unit is everything can be packaged into the outdoor unit such as circulator pumps and easier install as a monoblock. Just run water lines and electric to the house.

Water to water is very efficient if used with radiant heat, air to water with radiant will not be as efficient but should be more efficient than using a heat exchanger in a plenum with water to water or air to water. Low temp emitters allow the thermal storage to supply heat for a much longer time with the increased delta of the tank between cycles. I believe this is the move forward with radiant heat and thin plate emitters. As with solar systems, covering the first 90 to 95% is easy, it is the last 5 to 10% that is costly. One option is of course additional heat generating capacity with gas condensing boilers or just use electric resistance when heat pump efficiency drops below 1:1.

I went with a waterfurnace synergy 3D. Heats air, hydronic and potable water (desuperheat), all in the same unit. Luckily I have a friend that does excavation. We installed my slightly oversized ground loop at about 10ft deep.

I can do the ground loop myself, I have the room. I will have the thermal storage in place so it gives me options to run several different ways. I like options, shifting from one heat source to another depending on the season and outdoor temps allows greater efficiency but a larger investment upfront.
 
At risk of being labeled the "expert" (I'm not) I can stay I've been around this stuff for a long time and I've yet to see a sand and/or seasonal heat storage project that really panned out. To be honest I think many were purposely designed to relieve investors of thier money or garner government grants knowing full well they wouldn't pan out.
They use under ground insulated box with rocks thermal energy storage for the experimental high pressure air "energy storage" facilities. Because they need to retain thermal energy when pressurizing air and heat it back up when releasing it.. This is on large scale though
 
Both water and stone are already in use. In Belgium for example the 'brick' heaters used to be pretty common, warm them up overnight (cheap tariff) and slowly discharge the heat during the day. In other countries they are less common.

Main stone types are soapstone or clay tiles

More info about this subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_heater

In Belgium they are called 'accumulatiekachels' (you can google that), identical to the Britisch ones @Crowz was referring to.


Water storage is also available/tested. Here in NL there are 2 'known' companies to have an actual product available:
Solar freezer -> Many houses here in NL have a basement, which isn't really a basement, but just a 50-100cm space below the surface which also runs plumbing and utilities (mainly gas/water).
The Solar freezer is basicly just a massive waterbed.. a bag which contains.. water.
Its not a self-running system, it just is a cheaper alternative to a ground-bound heat pump. Drilling the required holes isn't always possible/affordable/allowed, so this system uses the water as source for a heatpump (Which is more effective than a air-bound heatpump in the winter)

Another commercially available set is the Borg T4. This is similar to the Solar freezer, however its put in the garden with its own insulaton
 
They use under ground insulated box with rocks thermal energy storage for the experimental high pressure air "energy storage" facilities. Because they need to retain thermal energy when pressurizing air and heat it back up when releasing it.. This is on large scale though
Please elaborate. Links?

Both water and stone are already in use. In Belgium for example the 'brick' heaters used to be pretty common, warm them up overnight (cheap tariff) and slowly discharge the heat during the day. In other countries they are less common.
Myself and other's on this forum are doing just that and we aren't challenging that it can be done. I've been doing it for 30+ years in fact. It's when people start talking about 550c or higher temps like it's commonplace with materials available today that we start asking questions. No answers yet.
 
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