AGS - Auto Generator Start Information Thread

[Cmiller]

We install quite a bit of the Kohler 14RCA units for off-grid backup. They run on NG or LP and for the price point, they have done quite well! We generally see between 4,000-6,000 hours out of them, and while that is not all that high hours, it is actually quite acceptable considering the going price (locally here) right now being ~$5,000. (That includes a concrete precast pad for it to sit on, and a carb heater for cold weather start.) If you have a reasonably sized solar array and battery bank, those 4-6k hours will go quite a number of years, if the gen is just starting as backup during winter months. We do generally try to only draw ~7-8kw when they are running, to help with engine longevity. I'm guessing fuel efficiency is also better in the 50-75% load range vs 80%+.

Along with this, when you compare power output and quality on the Kohlers vs other standby brands (Generac, Briggs, etc.) we have found the Kohlers to be a lot more stable both in voltage and frequency!

We have set up a few Cummins ~14-15kw?? standby units, and they do seem to do quite well, but we have not seen the long-term performance. We have been using these Kohlers for probably 7+ years now.

The Kohler 14RCA does have a warranty for Prime Power use, which is why we use it rather than their 20kw unit. Reliability of the 14RCA has also been waaayyyy better than the 20kw! (We set up a handful of 20kw units for special applications.)

 

[showme]

I have two Trace SW5548 inverter/chargers in a system I've recently gotten up and running. Since we haven't built our house there yet, I haven't hooked up a back up generator, but it's time, and I have a question for you, jimf909. Two questions, actually.
1) The inverters are set up to actuate a generator and control start up and shut down, and controls everything from their set up parameters for the generator. They have two control wires for start and run, labeled RY7 and RY8. There are other similar ports for auxillary and one or two other things, but none besides the two generator wires will be used. My first question is, is it possible for me to wire the two control wires into a generators' panel? It seems every AGS I see has pretty much the same parameter set up heading as my inverters. And, supposedly, these two wires are meant to trigger certain points in the genny's starting system. If everything is controlled from the inverter/charger, why would an auto generator start be necessary? I have the manuals for the inverters, but Trace is now defunct, so there's nobody to call and ask.
2) I have a Miller Bobcat Welder/11kw generator with a Kohler engine which if I remember right is a 19hp, and it runs on LP. Would I be able to set that up as my back up generator, controlled by my master inverter? And if that is possible, how would I set up an automatic choke for that, or is it even possible? With the dual inverters I'm hoping to use both legs of the 240v side of the generator and get a faster charge. (Sorry, 3 questions). We're building an earth home and will use a 1000gal propane tank for our stove, dryer and water heater, (wood heat) and I'm going to plum whatever genny we use to that system. What I'd really like to do is plant my welder in the shop I'm building, plum the gas line to it, and run the control wires to the generator in the shop to kill two birds with one stone. Of course, I'll have to run power lines from the shop to the house, but since I've got a 300' run from the arrays to the house, I'm looking at buying heavy wire by the spool, almost. I've oversized our system so that it will need minimal back up from the genny, so I can use the welder in the shop when I need it for projects, too. Thanks for any info, good or bad, that you can give me on this. Lee

 

[jimf909]

Caveat: I'm a hobbyist with knowledge of general AGS functions, specific systems I work with and incomplete knowledge of most other systems.

Okay, so you have this from RCinFLA which provides some info on the inverter outputs:

Pretty well explained in manual. RY7 is Run switch, RY8 is starter crank if you need separate starter control. Descriptions start pg 50 in revB manual. Picture of physical power board on page 13. Each relay has three spade lugs for NO, NC, and common pole of contact. You will be using NO and Common lugs to relays, until run is kill switch in which you will use NC, common for that function.
View attachment 125752

1)My first question is, is it possible for me to wire the two control wires into a generators' panel? It seems every AGS I see has pretty much the same parameter set up heading as my inverters. And, supposedly, these two wires are meant to trigger certain points in the genny's starting system

It depends on the generator and the inverter. In the US most generators are not built to take a simple two-wire input from the inverter and convert that to start/run/stop operation. Standby generators often incorporate this capability but the vast majority of others do not.

The AGS modules take the relatively simple signal from the inverter (12v in the case of Outback, closing the circuit in most other cases, I'm not clear on the outputs of your Trace inverter) to begin a sequence of commands that start the generator, e.g. the Atkins AGS module on my Westinghouse generator takes the closing of the circuit provided by the Victron inverter to: a) close a circuit that turns the generator switch on b) wait five seconds to close the circuit of the start button for a duration of 1 second c) monitor the output of the generator to ensure that it's running and d) if the generator isn't running it re-closes the circuit for the start button for a duration of 1 second. It will do this five times if it doesn't get a signal that the generator is producing AC voltage of the correct Hz.

That's a general overview. You need to find the manual for your generator to fully understand how the Trace SW5548 generator outputs work. I found this Trace manual and it includes 10 pages (p. 70 - 80) of information on two and three wire generator controls.

https://documents.unboundsolar.com/legacy/pdfs/inverter%20pdf%20folder/Xantrex%20SW%20Series%20Inverter%20Manual%20(2031-5%20RevC).pdf

2)If everything is controlled from the inverter/charger, why would an auto generator start be necessary? I have the manuals for the inverters, but Trace is now defunct, so there's nobody to call and ask.

It's true that the inverter controls the operation of the generator control outputs but those outputs may be inadequate to start a generator thus requiring an AGS module.

3) I have a Miller Bobcat Welder/11kw generator with a Kohler engine which if I remember right is a 19hp, and it runs on LP. Would I be able to set that up as my back up generator, controlled by my master inverter?

Very likely the answer is yes. When a human walks up to that generator they do a few things to start it. That could be flipping a switch, turning a key, closing the choke, etc. All these things can usually be automated and initiated by the simple inverter output.

The folks at Miller may have some direct info for you but this also may be a non-standard application for their products so they may not have good info.

And if that is possible, how would I set up an automatic choke for that, or is it even possible? With the dual inverters I'm hoping to use both legs of the 240v side of the generator and get a faster charge. (Sorry, 3 questions).

There are a number of ways to actuate a choke and it's most likely possibly with your generator. Some folks buy an AGS with an auto-choke module and install it when available. Others have built their own using electro-mechanical levers that are actuated by the AGS in the starting sequence. Does your welder run on propane or gasoline? Some propane motors do not require a choke.

What I'd really like to do is plant my welder in the shop I'm building, plum the gas line to it, and run the control wires to the generator in the shop to kill two birds with one stone. Of course, I'll have to run power lines from the shop to the house, but since I've got a 300' run from the arrays to the house, I'm looking at buying heavy wire by the spool, almost. I've oversized our system so that it will need minimal back up from the genny, so I can use the welder in the shop when I need it for projects, too. Thanks for any info, good or bad, that you can give me on this. Lee

This is roughly how my system is arranged (minus the welder and the 300' run). Depending on the amperage of the current running from the gen to the house the wire AWG may get expensive although 4 or 6 wag may cover your needs. I used 6 AWG wire for a 50' run to support 50 amps AC.

I've seen some of your other posts on this and it looks like you've been on this project for awhile. It can take some time to figure it all out but it doesn't sound like you're after anything that can't be accomplished.

HTH.

 

[showme]

I have the manual (two for the Trace's, one for the Trace/Xantrex). And I've read all that you've referred to, many times. What I need now is to know if and how it is accomplished. Yes, I've had the system set up since last summer, but the back up genny hasn't been an issue since we seldom need it for anything yet. But it's time, so I was asking. There are a few guys on this forum who have identical systems, or close to it. I guess I just need to contact them. RCinFl is one of them. Thanks for the link to that auto choke. I saw a button box with an aerial. I would hope that that wouldn't be needed with an "auto choke", otherwise it would defeat the purpose of being 'auto'. I guess what I would have to do is wire it into the crank connection so it would open when the engine starts.

 

[jimf909]

It's a remote start device that triggers the AGS which in-turn triggers the auto-choke, i.e. the user can start the generator using the remote control from their house. This AGS also takes the two-wire signal from an inverter to start the generator. It provides options for different start mechanisms for the user.

I think you'll get this figured out. Sorry I can't provide more specific info.

 

[Hamish]

AGS - Auto Generator Start Information Thread
The intent of this thread is to collect and share information to improve understanding of AGS systems, capabilities and limitations. This post will provide a starting point with the hope that others add, improve and correct any posted information. Hopefully this will help fill a need for accurate and helpful information on AGS.

Generators - meh
Fuel powered generators are seen by many to be everything from gross to just plain unnecessary. This is demonstrated by the relatively low traffic in the Fuel Backup Generator forum and also by Will’s hilarious (as in very fun to watch) disdain of a gas generator (see 02:54) when he had to buy one in order to test a battery charger. However, for some of us generators are part of our system and AGS vastly simplifies their use.

AGS: What is it?
AGS (Auto Generator Start) is a useful feature that provides the benefit of starting and stopping a generator automatically based on any number of conditions such as battery voltage, battery SOC, current draw, ambient temp, generator exercise, low oil level, over/under rpm, etc.

AGS: Why is it needed?

• For many (most?) folks here AGS isn’t needed. It seems the majority of solar systems are grid-tied and are being built with plenty of solar and battery capacity to run several days w/out grid support. Also, many off-grid folks are located in places where solar irradiance is consistent enough to minimize or eliminate the need for a backup generator. Running a generator for these folks will be infrequent enough that the AGS is not a big benefit.
• AGS is needed or helpful where a generator is often required to keep the batteries charged when solar yield isn’t adequate. Factors here can be: older solar systems where panels were undersized due to cost; locations with inconsistent or reduced solar irradiance; systems where humans won’t be available to manually start the generator, etc.

AGS may be helpful in the yellow or green parts of the map (and sometimes even in orange and red portions).
https://globalsolaratlas.info/map
View attachment 179421

AGS: Basic System Requirements

• Generator:
  • Gasoline or propane generator with electric start and auto choke (the auto choke can be DIY to adapt a non-auto choke generator to AGS)​
  • Diesel generator with relays to warm the glow plugs/intake air heater, run the fuel pump, etc. (this will be triggered in the correct sequence by the AGS)​
• AGS Trigger: A configurable component that allows the user to set conditions when the generator will start and stop. Components that sometimes have configurable AGS triggers include:
  • Inverter/charger
  • System aggregator like a Victron Cerbo or Outback Mate, etc.
  • Battery monitor
  • Sometimes the AGS module itself
• AGS Trigger Types: Typically the AGS trigger is a simple dry-contact that opens or closes a circuit. That's it! All that expensive inverter/charger, etc. does is close or open a switch to trigger the AGS module. Other triggers include a 12 volt signal, e.g. Outback inverters. The AGS module will take the signal from the open or closed circuit (or the 12v signal) to begin a sequence of events that starts or stops the generator. This is where the magic starts to happen.
• AGS module: The AGS module takes the simple signal from the AGS Trigger to replicate the steps typically initiated by a human to start or stop the generator. With the exception of standby generators, many (most?) generators sold in the US do not come with an AGS module. I’ve seen some generators advertised in AUS with AGS preinstalled and some as options in the US but for the most part assume this is an added part to the system. They coast roughly $250 - $500 USD with opportunities to spend more.
• DIY AGS 'module': Assorted relays, timed relays, etc. can be combined to create a DIY AGS system at a lower cost than products available on the market. I hope to include links to well documented solutions in one of the posts below.

Example: AGS In Action
Components: Victron Cerbo GX (system aggregator) | Atkinson GSCM-P (AGS module) | Westinghouse Wgen7500DF (generator)

• The Cerbo allows the user to set a number of start/stop conditions such as SOC, batt voltage, battery current, inverter temp, generator exercise, etc.
• When a start condition is met the Cerbo closes a dry contact that activates the Atkinson AGS (Atkinson calls it a GSCM – generator start control module). The Atkinson AGS is programmed and wired to: a) close the on/off switch on the generator (this turns the generator on), wait a few seconds and then b) close the start/stop switch on the generator which starts the generator.
• If the Atkinson AGS senses an AC signal from the generator it will do nothing until the Cerbo opens the dry contact at which point it will close the start/stop switch (turn the generator motor off) and open the on/off switch on the generator (turn the generator off) and then go into standby mode.
• If the Atkinson AGS does not sense AC coming from the generator it will assume the generator is not running and will attempt three start sequences. (The Atkinson decision matrix and sequences are explained in great detail in the manual.)
• An approximate wiring diagram is shown below.

View attachment 179429

I am using the Schneider XWPro, InsightHome, AGS, with a two-wire Generac. In the AGS, I want to set Generator settings --> "generator type" to "14", but cannot get it to change from "2". Any ideas?
----------------------
On-Grid
XW Pro 6848
MPPT 80-600 x2
InsightHome
Discover 42-48-6650 Li-Ion x3
Schneider AGS
Generac 6730 20KVA
230-W panels x24

 

[Cmiller]

I am using the Schneider XWPro, InsightHome, AGS, with a two-wire Generac. In the AGS, I want to set Generator settings --> "generator type" to "14", but cannot get it to change from "2". Any ideas?
----------------------
On-Grid
XW Pro 6848
MPPT 80-600 x2
InsightHome
Discover 42-48-6650 Li-Ion x3
Schneider AGS
Generac 6730 20KVA
230-W panels x24

The AGS mode needs to be in standby in order to change the gen type. Been there done that. Lol.

And just a note. If you go into the AGS menu and put mode into standby, your inverter will actually stay on, it will just put the AGS into standby. So you actually don't even need to have a power outage when you do this.

 

[Hamish]

The AGS mode needs to be in standby in order to change the gen type. Been there done that. Lol.

And just a note. If you go into the AGS menu and put mode into standby, your inverter will actually stay on, it will just put the AGS into standby. So you actually don't even need to have a power outage when you do this.

Duh! My bad. I wonder if I will ever learn. Thanks!

 

[Hamish]

Duh! My bad. I wonder if I will ever learn. Thanks!

There seems to be a whole family of settings that need standby, others not. A warning message would be nice, but this is Schneider--their whole GUI needs a major workover. The only way to tell is if you can't change the setting. Unfort, if you need to put XW in Stb, you have to go on bypass first, or a whole bunch of computers get mad.

 

[Cmiller]

There seems to be a whole family of settings that need standby, others not. A warning message would be nice, but this is Schneider--their whole GUI needs a major workover. The only way to tell is if you can't change the setting. Unfort, if you need to put XW in Stb, you have to go on bypass first, or a whole bunch of computers get mad.

The other thing is, they say if you don't cycle to standby then back into operating, after making settings, those settings could be lost if the inverter happens to lose DC power before it gets "mode cycled". (My goofy term for operating > standby > operating.)

Interesting though that the GUI is still basically exactly what it was back in the Xantrex days. But hey, it does work.... More can be said for the "working side" of the Schneider GUI than for some other brands of "newer" units... especially AIOs.