I've read on previous post that running a cheap genset on an aio will cause it not to sync and not to be able to use the power from the generator. is there no way around this? I'm sure by now someone has came up with a viable solution., other than buying a new genny! I've thought about buying a large 48 volt charger and charging the batteries that way but i feel that i would be wasting bypass power.
AIO and dirty power
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timselectric
If I can do it, you can do it.
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Yup
Chargeverter is the answer.
Chargeverter is the answer.
Rednecktek
Solar Wizard
Your choices are pretty limited to an inverter genny or an AC battery charger. Or building some sort of big rectifier magic power filter dingus thingy as a go-between, but those aren't usually a viable option.
timselectric
If I can do it, you can do it.
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Dingus thingys can be so temperamental.
how can I be for sure an inverter genset will actually work. you would think since its picking up that grid voltage is available that it would be able to use the power. I wonder if a little software change could make it work. I'm running within spec on the aio, so I'm not sure why it wont work. yea, a 240v 48 volt charger would be ok and would allow the use of any genset available. which is nice!
Rednecktek
Solar Wizard
My understanding goes something like this, and from what I've seen from our generators on ship VS the inverters and open frames I have at home I believe it...
An open frame basic generator set runs frequency and voltage high so that when there's a load that drags down the engine the drag brings the output to the 120v 60Hz range that everything likes. Problem is that the AIO's don't apply a load if the ranges are too far out so it's seeing 130v and 65Hz on the line and saying "Nope! Too far off!"
The inverter generators are trying to put out as close to 120v and 60Hz right out the gate and uses electronics to keep that range rather than adjusting the throttle and hoping it gets the RPM's right, so the AIO looks at the power on the line and sees that nice 120v 60Hz with no load and says "Yum, I can eat this!" and connects.
When the AIO starts drawing load the inverter generator is trying to adjust its output within milliseconds and fine tuning the engine separately. The open frame generator requires a governor to spin up and adjust a mechanical throttle to bring up the RPM's on the engine to a point where the mechanical controls back off the throttle and it settles out to that load. That's a lot of lag time and variances the AIO has to deal with and when things change at 60 times a second, all that governor changing and throttle adjusting takes a LONG time and some (most?) AIO's will just say "Too slow, giving up now!".
At least that's what I've seen running both types of portable generators as well as MW rated generators on ships I see that lag and droop and flicker and my Hz meter wiggles and such so it passes my logic sniff test.
An open frame basic generator set runs frequency and voltage high so that when there's a load that drags down the engine the drag brings the output to the 120v 60Hz range that everything likes. Problem is that the AIO's don't apply a load if the ranges are too far out so it's seeing 130v and 65Hz on the line and saying "Nope! Too far off!"
The inverter generators are trying to put out as close to 120v and 60Hz right out the gate and uses electronics to keep that range rather than adjusting the throttle and hoping it gets the RPM's right, so the AIO looks at the power on the line and sees that nice 120v 60Hz with no load and says "Yum, I can eat this!" and connects.
When the AIO starts drawing load the inverter generator is trying to adjust its output within milliseconds and fine tuning the engine separately. The open frame generator requires a governor to spin up and adjust a mechanical throttle to bring up the RPM's on the engine to a point where the mechanical controls back off the throttle and it settles out to that load. That's a lot of lag time and variances the AIO has to deal with and when things change at 60 times a second, all that governor changing and throttle adjusting takes a LONG time and some (most?) AIO's will just say "Too slow, giving up now!".
At least that's what I've seen running both types of portable generators as well as MW rated generators on ships I see that lag and droop and flicker and my Hz meter wiggles and such so it passes my logic sniff test.
Governor response is always a finiky thing with synchronous machines, large or small.
Biggest thing to understand about inverter generator is that frequency output isn’t directly tied to motor RPM speed, so any change in load (more fuel needed to recover RPM) shouldn’t impact frequency.
Biggest thing to understand about inverter generator is that frequency output isn’t directly tied to motor RPM speed, so any change in load (more fuel needed to recover RPM) shouldn’t impact frequency.
If it is an inverter generator from a name brand, it will work.
I have a Honda inverter generator that will satisfy anything I have tried it on, however it is only 120V.
I have to use an adapter to use it with the Chargeverter.
BTW, my AIO has no problem accepting my non-inverter 240V generator's power.
I still use the Chargeverter with either generator as a just-in-case thing.
It is also cheaper than buying a new 240V inverter generator.
what kind of generator are you using? that gives me hope that i can just adjust the voltage or frequency and get it to work!
Even in the same manufacturer, there can be differences in outcomes.
There is no guarantee mine will work every time.
Even my Honda is not going to last forever. There is no guarantee it will work every time.
That is why I use the Chargeverter.
Relatively cheap insurance. I can use it on a non-inverter generator for much less than an inverter generator.
The 240V generator I use with my PV system is A-iPower 10k start/ 8k run sold by Sam's Club.
I could buy 2 of those, and 2 Chargeverters for what I paid for my 3k Honda.
A constant 4K is still a pretty heavy load on a 17kw if you plan to use it for hours on end. If it were me I’d try and use it for no more than 4hr at a time.
IMO Standby Genset are designed around <20% duty cycle, they are more sold on convince and starting loads than base load.
IMO Standby Genset are designed around <20% duty cycle, they are more sold on convince and starting loads than base load.
Thank you for your input. I think you are being overly conservative. This generator has powered 3 mini-split heat pumps (total 70,000 BTU), plus home loads for 2 homes without fail. I'm interested in the ability of the Sol-Ark to stay locked on to the varying frequency.
Vigo
Solar Addict
So i have only personally owned 2 models of AIO, some growatt spf5000es and a $250 PowMr 12v 1500w model.
My Growatts have taken ANYTHING i fed to them.. ive fed them from 4 or 5 different generators, inverter and non, and ive also fed them from other inverters.. ive even fed them modified sine wave from a 120v inverter that i fed through a step up transformer to make 240.. it took that too! I have even, get this, got it to charge battery from a 240v input, and rapidly switched it to 120v and had it continue to charge battery from a 120v input. I wanted to try that because i noticed in the manual a ‘derate’ graph showing performance down to 90v ac so i knew it could do SOMETHING with 120, which i verified!
So ive had NO issue with my growatts being picky about AC input.
The PowMr on the other hand.. yes it sucks. It will see the ac input and refuse to connect to it for no reason. Can be a perfect 60hz sine wave and it wont work. Then you disconnect and reconnect the exact same input and it takes it just fine. It pretty consistently doesnt work on the first try and DOES work on the 2nd try. Its definitely a software thing and i actually think its more of a ‘bug’ than it is intentionally over-protective.
So what ive started testing with that AIO is just putting an ac source through a rectifier/filter and feeding the DC output to the solar mppt input. I have run it that way for maybe 18hrs straight with no apparent harm to the mppt. You do have to match your rectifier components and inverter settings to the power level you’re trying to achieve. If you hook a smaller rectifier to a larger mppt and dont ‘cap’ the mppt charge current, it will smoke your rectifier. I still consider myself in the ‘proof of concept’ phase so im still repurposing rectifier/filter sections out of broken appliances and havent gone past about 700w with this, but i plan to probably go to about 3000w on the setup i will build to hook to my growatts.
My Growatts have taken ANYTHING i fed to them.. ive fed them from 4 or 5 different generators, inverter and non, and ive also fed them from other inverters.. ive even fed them modified sine wave from a 120v inverter that i fed through a step up transformer to make 240.. it took that too! I have even, get this, got it to charge battery from a 240v input, and rapidly switched it to 120v and had it continue to charge battery from a 120v input. I wanted to try that because i noticed in the manual a ‘derate’ graph showing performance down to 90v ac so i knew it could do SOMETHING with 120, which i verified!
So ive had NO issue with my growatts being picky about AC input.
The PowMr on the other hand.. yes it sucks. It will see the ac input and refuse to connect to it for no reason. Can be a perfect 60hz sine wave and it wont work. Then you disconnect and reconnect the exact same input and it takes it just fine. It pretty consistently doesnt work on the first try and DOES work on the 2nd try. Its definitely a software thing and i actually think its more of a ‘bug’ than it is intentionally over-protective.
So what ive started testing with that AIO is just putting an ac source through a rectifier/filter and feeding the DC output to the solar mppt input. I have run it that way for maybe 18hrs straight with no apparent harm to the mppt. You do have to match your rectifier components and inverter settings to the power level you’re trying to achieve. If you hook a smaller rectifier to a larger mppt and dont ‘cap’ the mppt charge current, it will smoke your rectifier. I still consider myself in the ‘proof of concept’ phase so im still repurposing rectifier/filter sections out of broken appliances and havent gone past about 700w with this, but i plan to probably go to about 3000w on the setup i will build to hook to my growatts.
All of those loads are far from 100% duty cycle, let along constant load of 4-6kw for hours and hours on end.
My comments were for battery charging which I’m assuming as 4kw constant for as long at the generator is running.
I do agree I have a conservative mindset for my generator.
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