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Buying IMO DC Switch: How many poles are required?

Old_Skewler

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I guess I don't exactly know what the "poles" are hence my confusion trying to select the correct DC switch for my setup. I have (1) set of 8 AWG wires going to the DC switch. The wires carry 2 x Isc: 13.85A = 27.7A so in my limited understanding of things I would expect that I need 2-Pole @ 30A. But it seems like they only offer 3-pole, 4-pole and so on with a 30A current rating.

Could/Should I buy a 30A switch with more poles that I need? What exactly are the poles? Or should I be able to find a 2-Pole 30A switch?

Thanks in advance!
 
There is 1 set of 8AWG wires so you are using MC "Y" connectors to join 2 panels in parallel? MC connectors can accept up to #10 wire which is good for 30A but many low cost Y connectors use smaller wire.

Your question specifically: Since most Solar Charge Controllers and AOI inverters specify not to ground either + or - PV wires the output is considered an ungrounded "system" (the panel frames are of course grounded) it is customary to use a 2 pole breaker because either or both wires can have a potential thus need to be switched off for service.
 
Make sure your switch is rated for 30A at DC. Most people use a breaker as a switch.

You can use a single pole, however a double pole switch is slightly safer. It provides an extra layer of protection so if there's a short to ground somewhere in the wiring, disconnecting both poles will still prevent voltage from being present beyond the switch.

A 30A two pole breaker is inexpensive:

 
You can use a single pole, however a double pole switch is slightly safer. It provides an extra layer of protection so if there's a short to ground somewhere in the wiring, disconnecting both poles will still prevent voltage from being present beyond the switch.

Agree on the other advice, but how can you claim that a two pole disconnect is only slightly safer than a single pole on an ungrounded DC system? Neither pole is guaranteed to have any relationship with ground potential. What if the design happens to have both poles riding with AC? I think that is possible with NA electricity since 240V will has both poles alternating relative to ground potential.

Now a SCC, ungrounded system, going into a grounded battery, maybe it will have a stronger chance to happen to have one conductor close to ground. But this is not part of the contract in the system type specification (grounded vs ungrounded).
 
Agree on the other advice, but how can you claim that a two pole disconnect is only slightly safer than a single pole on an ungrounded DC system? Neither pole is guaranteed to have any relationship with ground potential. What if the design happens to have both poles riding with AC? I think that is possible with NA electricity since 240V will has both poles alternating relative to ground potential.

Now a SCC, ungrounded system, going into a grounded battery, maybe it will have a stronger chance to happen to have one conductor close to ground. But this is not part of the contract in the system type specification (grounded vs ungrounded).
It's not clear what your position is. Are you saying my statement is misleading or false because a two pole is significantly safer than a single pole, or are you suggesting that a two pole is no safer than a single pole?

In my worst case analysis the entire circuit can be boiled down into two cases:

1. Both positive and negative conductors of the source and load are floating or undefined with respect to ground
2. One or the other of the positive and negative conductors of the source or the load is connected to ground

If the circuit is properly wired, and no other fault exists, then in BOTH cases a single pole (switching the ungrounded side in case 2, switching either side in case 1) and a two pole are equivalent. No current will or can flow through the load side conductors if they are connected to ground (through a user, stray wire, tool, etc).

The "slightly safer" looks at possible faults that may occur not in the switch, but elsewhere in the circuit. For instance if one of the two conductors on the source side connects to ground then there are a number of problems that could arise, but since we are focusing on the switch and its protection there are only a few types of faults that would make the difference between a single pole and two pole significant:

In case 1 if either of the source conductors becomes grounded (worn insulation, faulty BMS, leaking electrolyte forming a conductive path, etc, etc) then in a double pole switch there is no path between its output terminals and ground, so there is no shock or fire hazard created by the choice of switch.

If a single pole switch is chosen in this case, though, and if a fault occurs connecting the source that would normally have been switched to ground on the source side, then the switch is ineffective - the unswitched side is now at a different potential relative to ground and the conductors after the switch on the load side are still a shock or fire hazard.

In case two if the source is properly grounded on one conductor, then a single switch on the ungrounded side is only worse than a two pole switch if at least two other failures occur - the grounded side becomes disconnected, and the ungrounded side connects to ground. This is much less likely than a single point of failure required in an ungrounded system to cause the two pole switch to be preferred.

So I still stand by my statement that a two pole switch is slightly safer than a single pole switch. The slightly refers to the fact that another failure must occur for the two pole to be more effective than the single pole. If a system experiences no failures or user errors, then both are equivalent in terms of fire and shock hazards. If a system experiences a single failure, then a two pole switch has some advantages over a single pole switch. If a system is suffering from multiple failures then a two pole has some advantages over a single pole.

But one or more failures or errors must exist elsewhere in the system for this additional designed-in safety factor to become the protective point.

To your second point, if the batteries, which are both a source and load, are connected to another device that is both source and load, such as a combined charger/inverter, then both devices must be separately fused (and switched if the in between conductor is required to be discharged at any point, such as for maintenance) as close to each device as reasonable. If a cable failure occurs between the two (metal cuts through and touches both positive and negative conductors is the trivial example) and you only have a breaker/fuse on one end, then the other end might turn itself into a source and create a fire/shock hazard. Same thing for parallel battery banks - if wire exists between them that is outside their enclosure, then the wire must be fused twice since either end can supply enough current to cause a fire hazard. On most cases each battery pack has an internal fuse/breaker, so this requirement is met, but charge controllers are often not fused internally (which is stupid, IMO, but they do have overcurrent protection provided electronically so they do have some amount of overcurrent protection - just not as dependable as a fuse or breaker)

But the rule of thumb is that all sources must be fused at the source.
 
I think my concern is around the ambiguous term “slightly”, when NEC is pretty aggressive about the difference needed in fusing, switching, and conductor coloring between grounded and ungrounded.

I will review the rest of your when I have more time, thanks for the great info.
 
Yes
NEC requires that all ungrounded conductors of a circuit be disconnected by a single handle throw.
I guess I don't exactly know what the "poles" are hence my confusion trying to select the correct DC switch for my setup. I have (1) set of 8 AWG wires going to the DC switch. The wires carry 2 x Isc: 13.85A = 27.7A so in my limited understanding of things I would expect that I need 2-Pole @ 30A. But it seems like they only offer 3-pole, 4-pole and so on with a 30A current rating.

Could/Should I buy a 30A switch with more poles that I need? What exactly are the poles? Or should I be able to find a 2-Pole 30A switch?

Thanks in advance!
You need at least a two pole. (For the positive and the negative) But a three pole would work. You would just have an unused pole.
 
There is 1 set of 8AWG wires so you are using MC "Y" connectors to join 2 panels in parallel? MC connectors can accept up to #10 wire which is good for 30A but many low cost Y connectors use smaller wire.
Partially correct: I am not using Y connectors but instead a terminal box inside the junction box located on the roof.

Your question specifically: Since most Solar Charge Controllers and AOI inverters specify not to ground either + or - PV wires the output is considered an ungrounded "system" (the panel frames are of course grounded) it is customary to use a 2 pole breaker because either or both wires can have a potential thus need to be switched off for service.
I do not fully understand what you are saying. Actually i do not understand any of it.
 
You can use a single pole, however a double pole switch is slightly safer. It provides an extra layer of protection so if there's a short to ground somewhere in the wiring, disconnecting both poles will still prevent voltage from being present beyond the switch.
Got it!

That is a lot cheaper than the IMO Switch. I understand that aside from needing a junction box to house this style of breaker, what else are the differences between this 2 pole breaker and the IMO switch? I suspect part of the difference is quick access to shut down the system?

I cannot tell what is better or simpler, a DC switch or a DC breaker.
 
You need at least a two pole. (For the positive and the negative) But a three pole would work. You would just have an unused pole.
Okay, so it sounds like at minimum I'd need a 2-pole but more poles would work also fine just wasted money.

And how about the solar grounding wire from the panels? Will/should the switch have a grounding bar inside of it too?
 
In an ungrounded PV system (the more common one these days) both positive and negative side of a PV string should be presumed to be hot. Negative != 0 potential/ground despite lies told to baby electricians and techs
I still do not whether this applies to my system and if so, what exactly this means in practicality.

I intend to run a ground wire connected the panels/rails - wouldn't that mean I have a grounded PV system?
 
Part of the problem is terminology, especially the use of the word "Ground". I'll abstain from writing that BOOK here unless you really want that.

Here is an analogy, kind of a poor one, hope it helps.
If you walk around on a carpet on a dry day and build up a static charge both of your arms have a static charge that will give you a shock if you touch a grounded light switch or the metal on the outside of your toaster. The + & - PV wires are kind of the same, neither one of them is grounded so both could have electric potential as compared to ground. If any of the components inside the active part of the electric or electronic circuit is grounded this is called a "system" ground.

The frame of the PV panels must be grounded. This is called an "equipment" ground.
I still do not whether this applies to my system and if so, what exactly this means in practicality.

I intend to run a ground wire connected the panels/rails - wouldn't that mean I have a grounded PV system?
If you could please wait a minute I can answer.
 
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I still do not whether this applies to my system and if so, what exactly this means in practicality.

I intend to run a ground wire connected the panels/rails - wouldn't that mean I have a grounded PV system?

You are grounding the frames. The frames are insulated electrically from + and - outputs.

In practicality it means don’t touch the uninsulated PV wires, either one, and disconnect both poles.
 
Okay, so it sounds like at minimum I'd need a 2-pole but more poles would work also fine just wasted money.

And how about the solar grounding wire from the panels? Will/should the switch have a grounding bar inside of it too?
If the enclosure is metal, it should be grounded.
If plastic, it's not needed. But handy for making connections.
 
You are grounding the frames. The frames are insulated electrically from + and - outputs.
Understood. So I am grounding the frames but my PV system is classified as ungrounded.

In practicality it means don’t touch the uninsulated PV wires, either one, and disconnect both poles.
Got it, I need a 2-pole switch to properly isolate the system.

Thanks for clarifying it.
 
If the enclosure is metal, it should be grounded.
If plastic, it's not needed. But handy for making connections.
Got it.

Assuming I am buying the IMO DC Switch with 2-poles, inside the conduit will have 3 wires (red, black, frame grounding). I understand that the red/black wires will go in and out of the 2 poles of the switch. But how about the grounding wire? It will land inside the IMO switch, so what will happen to it?
 
System grounds and equipment grounds are two different things. When we are talking about grounding on a stationary system we are referring to earth ground.
In a mobile system the term ground is NOT an earth ground, usually is referring to the negative side of the circuit and the entire chassis of the vehicle is called ground. Obviously something on rubber tires does not have an earth ground.
 
System grounds and equipment grounds are two different things. When we are talking about grounding on a stationary system we are referring to earth ground.
In a mobile system the term ground is NOT an earth ground, usually is referring to the negative side of the circuit and the entire chassis of the vehicle is called ground.
I believe it is a little clearer now, thanks for clarifying.
 
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