circuit breaker spark

[robbob2112]

Here's one I melted a while back when some idiot thought it would be a great idea to measure current of the panels hooked up to a 24V 100Ah bank...
Surprisingly the meter still reads voltage accurately, amps don't work...
I've been very happy with this meter, unfortunately it's not available. https://a.co/d/4EP9P5d

This was suggested as an alternate - it looks promising. NO DC inrush

Amazon.com

Has DC inrush - Questionable - in one add it says it does it and in one it doesn't Nope - ac only - the add is wrong

https://www.amazon.com/MESTEK-Multimeter-Current-Voltmeter-Auto-Ranging/dp/B0CJ59KX9Y

OK, I looked at the specs on at least 50 meters - all the major mfg of quality and the cheap stuff - have come to one inescapable conclusion - only Fluke will stand behind a setting of DC inrush current and put a tolerence on it. Others either don't support it at all OR they claim it but have a disclaimer that the first 300ms is not counted when measuring inrush (WTF to they think people are trying to meassure?) .

I suppose it makes sense if you think about it, they build the circuit for high accuracy and scale for hundreds of amps. Inrush could be 3 to 5 times that or more. They don't build them for that.

The other thing is the frequency of AC the various meters support in AC mode - even the fluke is 5HZ with ±0.1hz - so basically the DC rise time for inrush is hard to measure with anything portable. It seems the DC inrush they are listing as supported is for testing starter caps for motors and is limited to 5amps.




Which means my dreams are dashed and I will just have to settle for a generic meter and it will be much cheaper that way.

If anyone has a DC inrush setting please list the meter vendor and number so I can look it up in case I am wrong.

Found one -

Hioki CM4375​

the -50 model doesn't include bluetooth for connecting to the app
the -90 includes the bluetooth adapter - combined with app includes data logging and other features.

Hioki CM4375 AC/DC Clamp Meter

Hioki CM4375 AC/DC Clamp Meter. Great savings PLUS Free Shipping when you order online at GlobalTestSupply.com.

www.globaltestsupply.com

 

[JRH]

Ahh, ok. I will not be doing this again!
Should I replace the circuit breaker?


I will open it up and see if the fuse has blown.


Next purchase will be a clamp on Meter. I have one on the wish list on amazon.


thanks again.

Try to get one that has decently high inrush readings too , as sooner or later you will need that for somthing..

 

[ohmboy]

The meter works well ….. I’m amazed your meter is not fried. Watch some videos on youtube or better get someone local to hell you. DC will burn the crap out of you. AC will kill you. Zero shame in asking for help. Everyone had to learn. Electricty needs utmost respect you and I - everyone needs to do our best to learn. I’ve been working with electricity since stuck a fork in outlet about 5 yrs old. It tingled so good.

The display on the meter is still working. Continuity is still functioning. I will wait until I get the fuse before I use it again.
Thanks for the meter recommendations.

 

[ohmboy]

This 2A, 20A, 100A works for me for it's low current range.

This one is also on my list.

 

[BarracudaBob]

Could someone translate this please.

Don't text from phone late at night, point taken This is a bullet breaker with a Trim breaker panel. Hard core DC. Double hole lugs, never seen one fail, get warm, or any issues.

 

[ohmboy]

Here's one I melted a while back when some idiot thought it would be a great idea to measure current of the panels hooked up to a 24V 100Ah bank...

This sounds very similar to what I did.

 

[robbob2112]

I’ve been working with electricity since stuck a fork in outlet about 5 yrs old. It tingled so good.

HA HA, I thought I was the only one that did things like that

The blinding flash and the smell

 

[ricardocello]

HA HA, I thought I was the only one that did things like that

Parents car keys, outlet, 3 years old...

Just zapped myself with 120 VAC yesterday. Again.

 

[JRH]

This was suggested as an alternate - it looks promising. NO DC inrush

Amazon.com

Has DC inrush - Questionable - in one add it says it does it and in one it doesn't Nope - ac only - the add is wrong

https://www.amazon.com/MESTEK-Multimeter-Current-Voltmeter-Auto-Ranging/dp/B0CJ59KX9Y

OK, I looked at the specs on at least 50 meters - all the major mfg of quality and the cheap stuff - have come to one inescapable conclusion - only Fluke will stand behind a setting of DC inrush current and put a tolerence on it. Others either don't support it at all OR they claim it but have a disclaimer that the first 300ms is not counted when measuring inrush (WTF to they think people are trying to meassure?) .

I suppose it makes sense if you think about it, they build the circuit for high accuracy and scale for hundreds of amps. Inrush could be 3 to 5 times that or more. They don't build them for that.

The other thing is the frequency of AC the various meters support in AC mode - even the fluke is 5HZ with ±0.1hz - so basically the DC rise time for inrush is hard to measure with anything portable. It seems the DC inrush they are listing as supported is for testing starter caps for motors and is limited to 5amps.

View attachment 215185


Which means my dreams are dashed and I will just have to settle for a generic meter and it will be much cheaper that way.

If anyone has a DC inrush setting please list the meter vendor and number so I can look it up in case I am wrong.

Can only speak for what I have seen, I bought the Klein CL 900…about $180.00

I have used it to verify air conditioning surges which were about as the listed …

I have used it for DC surges on the main battery bank output near the bussbar. which seemed about what would be expected relative to the ac load on the inverter , but I can’t tell you I have any way to verify it’s accuracy ..it just seemed about what I was expecting .

Klein states it is rated to 2000 amps …ac/ dc……

That waaaayyy over anything I have to measure , so that’s all I can offer.

Otherwise it’s been a very good meter for a couple of years.

J.

 

[D71]

This was suggested as an alternate - it looks promising. NO DC inrush

Amazon.com

Has DC inrush - Questionable - in one add it says it does it and in one it doesn't Nope - ac only - the add is wrong

https://www.amazon.com/MESTEK-Multimeter-Current-Voltmeter-Auto-Ranging/dp/B0CJ59KX9Y

OK, I looked at the specs on at least 50 meters - all the major mfg of quality and the cheap stuff - have come to one inescapable conclusion - only Fluke will stand behind a setting of DC inrush current and put a tolerence on it. Others either don't support it at all OR they claim it but have a disclaimer that the first 300ms is not counted when measuring inrush (WTF to they think people are trying to meassure?) .

I suppose it makes sense if you think about it, they build the circuit for high accuracy and scale for hundreds of amps. Inrush could be 3 to 5 times that or more. They don't build them for that.

The other thing is the frequency of AC the various meters support in AC mode - even the fluke is 5HZ with ±0.1hz - so basically the DC rise time for inrush is hard to measure with anything portable. It seems the DC inrush they are listing as supported is for testing starter caps for motors and is limited to 5amps.

View attachment 215185


Which means my dreams are dashed and I will just have to settle for a generic meter and it will be much cheaper that way.

If anyone has a DC inrush setting please list the meter vendor and number so I can look it up in case I am wrong.

Inrush ac and dc They behave differently Going from locomotive dc traction motors to ac traction motors and inverters was significant change. Huge.

The “max” plus the “hold button” on my cheap clamp amp meter is basically the same as inrush button. It measures Peak = Hold locked at max. 4000 count trms



They do this on purpose…for the bs…. marketing and ignorance …. Scales are important and counts 4000 above. Speeds… ms Cat 3 rating above. Union label - under writer laboratory is requirement for some. CE listing was good for my “current” pun needs now.

G.E. Locomotive + RailroadS replaced 2 each 1000 amp fuses….with new buss bars and used the CT in place to monitor and cut excitation of main alternator with predicted spike inrush - peak hold monitoring but it was digitized vs real time…. Readings based on flash spiking. 1ms 10ms 100ms. Digital is not actual real time . We have improved big time though.
Edit added: Total 18 fuses removed based on ct monitoring software ala a replacement for the fuses. Cheap Fuse elimination mod = 1/4 million $$$ main alternator sales.

needless to say a lot of $250,000 main alternators plus additional itemS like full bridge rectifier modules - 6 or so cables of 1600 per phase would go up in smoke. TIMING. Perfect world. Fly by wire is amazing too… no?

Video from Klein inrush

The old “amp probe” clamp use to come in 2 separate units years ago 1 for ac and 1 for dc. They came out with module like amp probes later. Then digital.

The garden bender volt - multi- meters they sell advertise trms but they are not … china junk Harbor freight free meter is better.

Hold with voltage

New ppl need to educate themselves before use tools. OP had dc and not ac. Lucky. Ac will kill you dc will burn you. I’ve been shocked several times - shock therapy. = 1 Flew over cuck coo nest …Nurse Ratched Was a hero but cast as a villain.

Oh yeah in old days with analog amp probes they would not read backwards on dc reading Notice negative symbol had to flip them. That is my inverter power up. No major drama no load other then raspberry pi 4 pulling from ac side of inverter. Not changed over to dc converter yet.



In military - commercial …. aviation and locomotive required all meter and torque wrenches be certified ….the certifications…..put a lot of other wise good meters out of service. Some meters degrade over time.

 

[Robert Ibe]

Don't text from phone late at night, point taken This is a bullet breaker with a Trim breaker panel. Hard core DC. Double hole lugs, never seen one fail, get warm, or any issues.
View attachment 215189View attachment 215188

Ok so they call those bullet breakers , I have seen those in my parts searching .

I am using something similar but a little bigger for disconnects on my DIY battery builds , 2 pole F series Carling Technologies DC breakers rated at 50,000 AIC DC along with A6T fuses rated at 100,000 AIC DC .

 

[Hedges]

How well has it held up over time? Is the case solid? i.e. if you drop it from working height would it break? Is it accurate when checking against another meter?

I've had Harbor Freight Ames 1000A for a couple years now. So far so good. Haven't dropped from height.

I think Filter Guy was the member who bought one on my recommendation. Flaky readings until he touched up solder on banana jacks.

I love my Fluke, but it isn't clamp, and their clamp didn't do 10 mA resolution.

HA HA, I thought I was the only one that did things like that

The blinding flash and the smell

"Electromagnet", paper clip coiled a couple times. Slipped my finger through to to grip and shoved into extension cord.

DC will burn the crap out of you.

Been there, done that.

⚡Shock⚡ through the heart,

Speaking of idjit moves...I upgraded a while back from 2 inverters to 3, the main Pos Class-T remained a 300A. while I waited for a bigger fuse to come in. (ie now undersized). Then recently after witnessing the OST (official solar tester) aka the spouse pushing the system near to it's limits I...

diysolarforum.com

AC will kill you.

Been there, done that.

⚡Shock⚡ through the heart,

And you're to blame, You give solar a bad name! Meant to be safer than a cheater cord, power cord with shrouded banana plugs + Similar wire and banana connected to equipment under test. Now it's easy to stack banana plugs and plug in HV scope probe. It's just as easy to mix up Line and...

diysolarforum.com

Zero shame in asking for help. Everyone had to learn. Electricty needs utmost respect you and I - everyone needs to do our best to learn.

Here's another clamp:

Amazon.com

 

[robbob2112]

Inrush ac and dc They behave differently Going from locomotive dc traction motors to ac traction motors and inverters was significant change. Huge.

The “max” plus the “hold button” on my cheap clamp amp meter is basically the same as inrush button. It measures Peak = Hold locked at max. 4000 count trms

View attachment 215208

They do this on purpose…for the bs…. marketing and ignorance …. Scales are important and counts 4000 above. Speeds… ms Cat 3 rating above. Union label - under writer laboratory is requirement for some. CE listing was good for my “current” pun needs now.

G.E. Locomotive + RailroadS replaced 2 each 1000 amp fuses….with new buss bars and used the CT in place to monitor and cut excitation of main alternator with predicted spike inrush - peak hold monitoring but it was digitized vs real time…. Readings based on flash spiking. 1ms 10ms 100ms. Digital is not actual real time . We have improved big time though.
Edit added: Total 18 fuses removed based on ct monitoring software ala a replacement for the fuses. Cheap Fuse elimination mod = 1/4 million $$$ main alternator sales.

needless to say a lot of $250,000 main alternators plus additional itemS like full bridge rectifier modules - 6 or so cables of 1600 per phase would go up in smoke. TIMING. Perfect world. Fly by wire is amazing too… no?

Video from Klein inrush

The old “amp probe” clamp use to come in 2 separate units years ago 1 for ac and 1 for dc. They came out with module like amp probes later. Then digital.

The garden bender volt - multi- meters they sell advertise trms but they are not … china junk Harbor freight free meter is better.

Hold with voltage

New ppl need to educate themselves before use tools. OP had dc and not ac. Lucky. Ac will kill you dc will burn you. I’ve been shocked several times - shock therapy. = 1 Flew over cuck coo nest …Nurse Ratched Was a hero but cast as a villain.

Oh yeah in old days with analog amp probes they would not read backwards on dc reading Notice negative symbol had to flip them. That is my inverter power up. No major drama no load other then raspberry pi 4 pulling from ac side of inverter. Not changed over to dc converter yet.

View attachment 215206

In military - commercial …. aviation and locomotive required all meter and torque wrenches be certified ….the certifications…..put a lot of other wise good meters out of service. Some meters degrade over time.

Having worked in a type III Navy calibration lab for several years I probably calibrated and repaired at least a few thousand meters. Of those most were Simpson 260 or Fluke 77an. Ninty percent of the time the Simpson had to be tweaked or repaired by lifting a resistor, cleaning contacts, lifting the current shunt, replace broken or cracked parts of the case. The 77an, once in a blue moon had to take the cover off to clean the switch contacts. Even less often maybe one out of a few hundred tweak the single internal adjustment and recheck it.
The only ones we ever had to red tag were the ones that came in melted or run over by an airplane.

 

[BarracudaBob]

Ok so they call those bullet breakers , I have seen those in my parts searching .

I am using something similar but a little bigger for disconnects on my DIY battery builds , 2 pole F series Carling Technologies DC breakers rated at 50,000 AIC DC along with A6T fuses rated at 100,000 AIC DC .

Now there is a good positive contact screw down breaker. I bet it bolts to a heavy plate or terminal to dissipate the heat. I really liked the ez din rail breakers when I first got into solar, they came with the inverter. I use commercial bullet breakers at work and didn't think it was possible to come across the breaker panel under $1K. They seem rare until I found some surplus on flea-bay and had to buy it. There is so much mass on the terminals to dissipate heat and everything is double lug for the wires. Breakers are ez to come by but not the panels. 30 years in dc plants and never saw one fail. Good enough for me.

 

[Brett V]

Have you tried both a "Real" (resistive) load with 1.0 power factor, and a low PF load like LED lamps or VFD?

I’m not ashamed to eat a little crow when it’s served up. Checked both meters today and the $40 Chinese clamp on is reading about 5% lower than the Fluke 374 with a ~50 amp load. They’re closer at a smaller load so the error multiplies as current increases.

 

[Brett V]

Don't text from phone late at night, point taken This is a bullet breaker with a Trim breaker panel. Hard core DC. Double hole lugs, never seen one fail, get warm, or any issues.
View attachment 215189View attachment 215188

Alcatel uses the same breaker in a slightly different configuration for their microwave radios. I’ve literally touched thousands of them over the years and they just sit there and work.

 

[Hedges]

But is it True RMS?
or does poor PF trip up the cheap meter?

 

[Brett V]

But is it True RMS?
or does poor PF trip up the cheap meter?

The cheap meter? It claims to be, but how does TRMS apply to DC measurements?

 

[Ottox]

Hioki makes some good ac/dc clamp meters that do dc amps through the clamp. Check various models on Amazon. I found a “used” one for $180, which was really just a damaged box but brand new and unused cm4373

 

[Ottox]

Otherwise check out offer up for “cheap” fluke clamp meters (probably stolen)