Grid tie with hybrid inverter and no batteries - possible?

[buzzlightyear]

I've started looking at grid tie systems, and see that you get inverters that switch between grid and solar depending on demand, as well as hybrid inverters that can augment solar with grid. Question I have: can I use a hybrid inverter without batteries, or is this dependant on the specific inverter? The hybrid ensures you get maximum benefit from the solar array, so it looks like a better option. I don't intend backfeeding, because it does not make financial sense to me here in Cape Town, no incentives, rebates, etc. I just want to run max on solar during the day.

 

[svetz]

There are two systems that come to mind, the first is Outback's new Skybox and the second is Enphase's about to be releast IQ8 Ensemble line.

 

[svetz]

Pika (just bought out by Generac) and Sol-Ark have hybrid systems. They don't need batteries to work; but you won't get power when the sun is out and grid is down without them. The good news, unlike other hybrid inverters, those two can, I believe, give PV power with a tiny battery bank. If the battery backup is just for emergency (e.g., you won't be cycling them per day), Sol-Ark has a really nice story with their PCC batteries. If interested let me know and I'll find a link for information.

 

[Kyle]

 

[Ulmo]

Ah! Yes, this looks like a new capability: people wanting to work using solar when there is no utility power and no batteries. It's always been crazy that we haven't had that capability in the past; the regulations, as always, have stopped innovation and value, and every time we told the inverter manufacturers to find a way around that, they gave us a deaf ear. Now they're finally listening.

I wish I had a way to stay in school when I was learning electrical engineering; I could have been one of their competitors. It always amazes me that good money is spent on bad students that don't produce anything of value, yet they spend extra money keeping the good students out of school on purpose. Despite all that, it's good the inverter manufacturers are finally listening to the customers, slowly.

 

[bhavin66]

Let's not forget MPP solar which Will tested on his channel.
I have been looking to tinker a little bit with my grid tie system and after seeing how it is wired and I have SREC tied to the system my only option is to try AC coupling. I cannot do DC coupling as I will loose the SREC money I get for generating solar power.

 

[Ulmo]

They only subsidize things they are willing to corrupt. If you get in early enough, you can get a bigger subsidy and get out of the terms of the subsidy soon enough to purify the system at some point. That's my plan. But my system is undersized. I might be able to build the pure side of it sooner.

 

[Danner]

I'm getting ready to install the Sun gtil2, jimginnyohio on YouTube explains it well.

 

[ThinBlueLine]

Don’t see anything on pricing for the Sol-Ark systems

 

[svetz]

Don’t see anything on pricing for the Sol-Ark systems

Try this link: https://www.sol-ark.com/customize-8k-system/

 

[Ulmo]

I'm getting ready to install the Sun gtil2, jimginnyohio on YouTube explains it well.

I like the way he describes things. He has a number of videos on his YT channel; this is just one of many where he references the Sun G.T.I.

 

[Sky-HHI]

The problem I see with his setup is in the AC section, the AC neutral wire should not go thru the circuit breaker, only the hot wire should go thru a single circuit breaker. The neutral wire should go straight to the volt meter and out to the house/grid. The AC circuits in your house panel does not go thru a circuit breaker, only the hot wire goes thru a circuit breaker. I think he may be confused because the videos he are watching are from other countries which use 220 volt AC systems, and you would use a double circuit breaker on a 220 volt AC circuit.

 

[b.james]

The neutral wire should go straight to the volt meter and out to the house/grid.

Don't see it makes a difference and with 240V at least we use an RCD on the inverter output. I don't see one there so if someone sticks a fork in the works does it switch off?
I'm assuming there is one on the incomming grid supply line main switchboard but what if it going the other way? If the inverter is putting out what stops electrocution.

RCD=Residual Current Device.

Thanks for the video.

 

[Ulmo]

The problem I see with his setup is in the AC section, the AC neutral wire should not go thru the circuit breaker, only the hot wire should go thru a single circuit breaker. The neutral wire should go straight to the volt meter and out to the house/grid. The AC circuits in your house panel does not go thru a circuit breaker, only the hot wire goes thru a circuit breaker. I think he may be confused because the videos he are watching are from other countries which use 220 volt AC systems, and you would use a double circuit breaker on a 220 volt AC circuit.

Great points. I didn't watch his video that closely. Be warned! We split our phases differently here in USA. (Different transformers, transformer taps, grounding, wiring, delivery, etc.).

 

[Supervstech]

The problem I see with his setup is in the AC section, the AC neutral wire should not go thru the circuit breaker, only the hot wire should go thru a single circuit breaker. The neutral wire should go straight to the volt meter and out to the house/grid. The AC circuits in your house panel does not go thru a circuit breaker, only the hot wire goes thru a circuit breaker. I think he may be confused because the videos he are watching are from other countries which use 220 volt AC systems, and you would use a double circuit breaker on a 220 volt AC circuit.

Modern homes in the us do require the neutral wire to pass through the breaker on interior wiring circuits... nearly every cable in the panel now needs Arc fault breakers, and those that don’t require GFCI breakers... so... yeah. New install cables should have the neutral wire passing through the breakers.

 

[Russ]

Modern homes in the us do require the neutral wire to pass through the breaker on interior wiring circuits... nearly every cable in the panel now needs Arc fault breakers, and those that don’t require GFCI breakers... so... yeah. New install cables should have the neutral wire passing through the breakers.

When I add breakers to my box the black wire goes to the breaker. The white wire goes to the neutral bar. The copper ground goes to the grounding bar. That's standard 110v. GFI is for wet area like the bathrooms, kitchen and outdoor plugs, How modern of a house are you talking about?

 

[Supervstech]

When I add breakers to my box the black wire goes to the breaker. The white wire goes to the neutral bar. The copper ground goes to the grounding bar. That's standard 110v. GFI is for wet area like the bathrooms, kitchen and outdoor plugs, How modern of a house are you talking about?

Current inspections by code following the NEC 2017 revision are making more and more circuits in the home arc fault protection required.
so, by code, if a wire is installed in a breaker panel feeding other than kitchens and bathrooms, or crawl spaces, or outdoor outlets... all of those require GFCI protection...
code allows a repair without AFCI upgrading if it wasn’t code when the circuit was installed originally.
But extending a circuit or adding a new circuit today requires AFCI protection.

 

[Russ]

Current inspections by code following the NEC 2017 revision are making more and more circuits in the home arc fault protection required.
so, by code, if a wire is installed in a breaker panel feeding other than kitchens and bathrooms, or crawl spaces, or outdoor outlets... all of those require GFCI protection...
code allows a repair without AFCI upgrading if it wasn’t code when the circuit was installed originally.
But extending a circuit or adding a new circuit today requires AFCI protection.

Hmmmm... Glad I have not heard that those ARC are expensive. My box is 30 years old but in great condition

 

[Russ]

Current inspections by code following the NEC 2017 revision are making more and more circuits in the home arc fault protection required.
so, by code, if a wire is installed in a breaker panel feeding other than kitchens and bathrooms, or crawl spaces, or outdoor outlets... all of those require GFCI protection...
code allows a repair without AFCI upgrading if it wasn’t code when the circuit was installed originally.
But extending a circuit or adding a new circuit today requires AFCI protection.

The reason I went through where the wires go is because I saw where Supervstech said neutral goes through the breaker which is not correct when talking about 110v. I must have not known he was talking about ARC breakers. I have one installed and if memory is correct there is a white wire connected to it. I misunderstood

 

[Supervstech]

Hmmmm... Glad I have not heard that those ARC are expensive. My box is 30 years old but in great condition

What I have noticed when replacing main panels and such on older houses is the AFCI breakers DO NOT LIKE old cloth wiring. (50+ year old houses) and are near impossible to retain existing circuits and pass inspection.
Often, I caution customers that the code requirement on the panel change usually will require restringing a room circuit or more... I usually talk myself out of a job on he older homes.